Dr. Wayne Chappelle: Father Wounds & the Wingman Every Man Needs

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi guys, welcome back to Dudes Without Dads podcast. And today, I've got a very special guest inside the house. He actually worked with NBA players, elite military leaders, and Olympic athletes. Let's go. But what he's bringing today isn't just for the pros. It's for every dude who grew up in a home where dad wasn't there, wasn't right, or just left the mark. He never met the lead. Dr. Wayne Chappell, also known as Dr. Steve, just co-authored a brand new book called Kill Your Hurting Mind.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

My life was just spyrolling downhill depression, alcoholism, incarceration, and death about as fair. One guy who showed up is just easier. If you can give a man clarity and community, he can start to live out his purpose. You can break generational curses of alcoholism.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Welcome to Dudes Without Dads, the show that trains men how to become the dads they never had. Dr. C, welcome to the show. Before we get into the book, just tell us who you are in your own words. Not the resume version, but who is Wayne Chappelle?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Well, I don't get that question very often, but I think it's a very important question to have. I would describe myself as a follower of Christ, um, as a husband uh and as a father and as a man who loves to help people. I didn't use the title psychologist because I think it's too restrictive. Um, and I'm not necessarily a fan of labels because it boxes us in. But um yeah, a follower uh of Christ, uh looking to be and live a life according to his will and what he has for me, and to do the best job both personally and professionally.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

That's so good. How we answer that question reveals so much about how we view ourselves and how we navigate through through this this world. So it's my understanding that you have worked with elite performers, NBA guys, special forces, and all this on the surface, those seem like the last dudes who would admit to be struggling emotionally. But what do you actually see when you get behind closed doors with those individuals that are high performers?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

You know, it's it's interesting whether it's preparing for the battlefield or preparing for a professional uh sports arena or game, or even with the Olympic athletes that I've worked with, um a very, very uh strong trait of them is drive, drive uh to excel, to succeed, to impress. And one of the most important things is that I see that I oftentimes have to work through with them is they oftentimes will equate their value and their worth based upon the outcomes that they have either on the battlefield or in the game. Um and their I, you know, sense of identity could be based upon, hey, I'm wearing this special operations beret, or I'm wearing this professional sports jersey. This is who I am. And oftentimes the place that we start is you're bigger than the battlefield and you're bigger than the baseline in terms of sports.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

So a lot of men that are listening right now, they didn't grow up with with it with a dad, or they grew up with one, but that one did more damage than good. In your clinical experience, how much of what happens in our past actually shows up inside of a grown man's life, even if it's years later?

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Um, our past is unavoidable. Um, and what happens in our past really shapes very intently the beliefs that we develop about ourselves, who we are, why we're here, the purpose that we have, the beliefs that we have about other people, um, what relationships look like, what specific uh um relationships, both in terms of friendships as well as uh marriages and families, and it also shapes deeply our beliefs about the world. Um, so it's unavoidable. You can have both positive beliefs that are shaped based upon the experiences that you have, but you can also have some very negative beliefs, and these beliefs become so deeply ingrained in the way that we think that it shapes our thoughts and responses to life events so automatically that it often occurs without effort, kind of unconsciously. It's automatic, automatic thoughts, right? So I'll give an example. If you grew up in an environment where perhaps uh it was poverty stricken, where people were pretty rough and not necessarily honest, and you watched a lot of people around you do hurtful things to others, you oftentimes will grow up seeing the world as being untrustworthy. Um, that you'll see the world filled with wolves, and you'll oftentimes develop what I would call walls to protect yourself. Um, and in some cases, those walls could be very adaptive for the environment that you were in and how you were growing up, but those walls are oftentimes unhealthy or maladaptive as you grow older, especially in terms of developing relationships that require trust, uh, honesty, and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I'm trying to process what you said about building walls. Are there telltale signs for a dude who's built up walls that that they don't even realize that they've actually created walls inside their lives?

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah, the the there's a there's different types of walls. Some walls are based upon how much we let people into our life, especially in terms of sharing with them our vulnerabilities. And other walls are based upon how well we'll connect with our emotions, how much we'll recognize our emotions, and how much we'll allow ourselves to process our emotions. Now, walls aren't unhealthy per se. It's just a matter of how thick and deep those walls are and how willing you're willing to remove those walls in order to become the best version of you. So, for instance, um, yes, the world is wicked. It does have uh challenges and wolves to it, but not everybody is wicked and not everybody is a wolf. And so you have to be able to recognize when it's appropriate to remove those walls or to invite people into you. And yes, there is an it is important to be able to compartmentalize your emotions and put them in a box and put them on a shelf so that you can perform well under high demand and high pressure situations. But as a man, we also have to learn how to pull that box down and unpack our emotions with the people who are around us that we care and love and trust in order to have support from them, in order to have also emotional intimacy. And the reason for that is because you want to break the walls down emotionally and also relationally, because nobody ever becomes the best version of themselves by themselves. It's always with the people who we surround ourselves with and the level of support emotionally and relationally that we get from them in order for us to get through some of the most difficult storms in life.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Have you met people that said just get over it? Like, let's let's bury it, let's put it in the past and just move on. Yes, my dad abused me. Yes, I've experienced childhood trauma, and that is the past, and I don't want to deal with it. Is there any danger? Can you not just forget about it and go on?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah, so there are times in which the moment requires so much attention and so much of your energy that you may not necessarily, it may not necessarily be the time or the place to to look at your past and to explore it and to understand it, but you don't want to avoid nor ignore your past because your past is an important part of who you become, who you are, and oftentimes what you later become. So, for instance, who you are today is likely different than who you were two years ago, and who you are a year from now should be a little bit different than who you are today. And so we want to be able to also set aside a time to explore our past, understand our past, so that we use our past as a way to shape us to become intentionally the man that we aspire to be. If you don't evaluate your past, if you don't look at your present, you can't with any intention make decisions that are informed about who you desire to be in the future. Does it does that make sense at all?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, it's really good. And sometimes I'm I'm I I want to ask myself the question in light of what's happened in our past, what has you know, the Satan, what has Satan stolen from us? Like, what am I meant or created to enjoy? But I'm actually not able to enjoy it because of the pain or the lack of dealing with something that's taken place in the past, which sets up this question right here. Um as a psychologist, you you wrote a book with with Craig Roschell, and it's called Heal Your Hurting Mind. And what I'm curious about from a psychological standpoint is what does a father wound actually do inside of the mind, like below the surface, yeah, what is actually taking place?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

So so that's good. So I think, and what a brilliant, brilliant question, because we are all going to have to some degree father wounds, whether whether you grew up without a father or even with a father. And the reason for that is because our secular fathers are simply human beings, they are imperfect human beings and they are going to make mistakes. And even when they think that they're doing well and they're doing good and they're being smart in reality, they could be being harmful. Um, and so father wounds apply to everyone. So let's put that out on the surface. Um, and if somebody says, Yeah, I had this great father who is absolutely amazing, he was wonderful. Well, then you also have to take a step back and ask yourself, man, are you ignoring something in your past? Are you glossing over something because it's just too painful? Because I only know one perfect person. That person walked this earth 2,000 years ago. It's not me, it's not you, it's not your father, it's not mine. So therefore, you you you want to, you're not dishonoring your father by saying he wounded me. You are dishonoring your father by lying about him and saying he was perfect, or by saying for the ones who did have present fathers, or by saying everything that my father did was absolutely horrible. Now, I'm going to address that in just a minute. However, your question was do father wounds like affect people, right? Moving into the future, and how do they how does it do this? Well, it all let's define a father wound as something that a father did to the us or did not do for us. It could be an act of omission or an act of commission that hurt us and negatively shaped the way we think or feel about ourselves or the world in general. One father wound could be for those who grew up without a father, a sense of abandonment. Hey, when I was 10, then my father left me. And so therefore, I have um issues about trust. I have in issues of insecurity. And oftentimes that's taken into a relationship with somebody else. So all of a sudden you're now dating and you're in your young 20s, you've never had a father around, or perhaps the father came in and out of your life unpredictably and said things to you, but was dishonest about it, or never followed through with it, or made promises that were always broken. That stuff's going to get carried straight into a relationship that you have with somebody else. You might have, you might project that onto the woman that you're starting to love, thinking she'll never be around, or it's just a matter of time before she leaves me, or I can never really trust anything that she says. Or that wallet father ruin could manifest itself by things that you do, such as I can go ahead and say something truthful, but yeah, if I fall, um, I can I can maybe not tell the full truth. My father never told it to me, so I guess that's kind of what fathers do. Or I can say yes, I'll do something, but not necessarily follow through with it, because that's kind of what my father did. Oftentimes we default to what we experienced, even when we know it's wrong. So how about this father room? Father doesn't know how to handle his anger, and so he ends up physically harming and and beating you, right? Grabbing you, roughing up, uh, throwing you, uh, leaving bruises on you. And you're thinking, man, that's painful. I'll never do that. So now you take that into becoming a father yourself, and you're screaming at your kid. You might cuss at him, you might label him as lazy and whatnot, but you're thinking, you know what, I'm okay because I'm not beating on him. I'm not doing anything that my father, I'm not doing what my father did to me, which was horrible. And because I'm not hitting him, I'm being much better version. Well, no, well, guess what? You might not be hitting him with your fists, but you're hitting him with your words. And oftentimes those the those can be just as painful and lasting. Might not be physical boost, but now it's emotional abuse. And there's those, you know. So, yes, there are many ways in which the experiences that we had both with our mothers and with our fathers that carry us into our relationships into the future.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah, if I were to sum it up, it's affecting you more than you realize. And just because you've buried it doesn't mean it's gone. It's still very much alive.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Your brain, your experiences with your father, whether he was absent or present, codes into your brain what masculinity looks like or doesn't look like, and how that should be manifested as you grow older. It is unavoidable, inescapable.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I want to thank you for taking time to listen to this story. And if there's something inside of here that is adding value to you, I want you to stop and hit subscribe. I am on mission to help men become the dads they never had. Many of us struggle with father wounds, addictions, identity issues, and really what we need is we need a model. We need to see people that have broken the patterns and come alongside of them. I want to simply invite you to join me on the journey. Every Thursday, we're gonna release a new episode. Each episode is gonna help you and others become the dads they never had. Hit subscribe and share with a friend. Now let's get back to the story. I've shared this with some friends, and I'm gonna you know ask my next question. But what I've realized, the older dude without a dad, the older I get, the more I realize all my frustrations are actually actually something from the past that's presenting itself in the future. So I appreciate you sharing. And so I've I've interviewed dudes whose dads have committed suicide, um abusive fathers that have beat beat beat their kids, then uh their their moms. Um how do you rebuild your identity when you look back on your own dad and you just you don't have a lot of respect, a lot of honor, you have a lot of brokenness. How does a dude start from scratch to rebuild their identity?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Okay, so this this is uh this is very uh it's got some layers to it. The the first layer is obviously recognizing that the relationship that you had with your father does transform and influence you, um, even in ways beyond your own recognition as you grow older. Either about you could look back at your father and go, he served as an example of what not to do, so therefore I won't do that, or in some cases, um he can serve as an example of what to do. Um now, if he served as an example of what not to do, that doesn't mean you know what to do, right? Um, so your sense of identity, first and foremost, is going to be to some degree shaped by by him. And it's important to think about, contemplate how. Number two, you do not have to become your father. There might be things that you are genetically influenced by because you carry your father's genes, but it doesn't mean that you have to continue that cycle of problems because you have full control and full agency on that. Um, and it's your choice, it's your decision. So your influence, the the identity that you have, um, can be directly correlated with the man that you desire to be and aspire to be based upon how God's designed you to be, and not necessarily follow in the footsteps of your father.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

So let me interrupt you there. Yeah. So just for our listeners, you said it is possible that you can create a new identity, your identity from the past, or you don't have to be like your father. You actually have hope. And once you and why is that important that a dude knows that they actually have a choice here?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Because um, you are the architect of your life, no matter what pressures, temptations, or influences that you feel to include genetically, you are ultimately the architect of your life. God has given us the agency to make choices in our life on who we desire to become. And so you may have beliefs about the world or other sort of influences that have shaped you in terms of how you think, but ultimately, or how you respond to life events, but ultimately it's your decision. So you can become who you aspire to be. It's not easy, it's it's gonna take work, but anything worth profile worth pursuing takes a lot of work and effort.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So once a dude realizes that, you know what, I don't have to be that dude, how do you what's the next layer that we're gonna be building upon?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Well, I want to talk to the guys who've had some pretty rough experiences, right? The ones where perhaps they were abandoned or they watched their father commit suicide or drink themselves into alcoholism or were physically abused. In our lives, we are often taught, even by pop psychology, that if you've had really rough experiences in your life and you've been traumatized, therefore you're broken. And therefore, because you're broken, you will always be broken. Um, and you're a victim. And so I like to approach it from a different perspective, sort of like the battlefield, right? We face the battlefield and watch wicked people do very wicked things, and we see some of the most worst of humanity. Um, and yet in those dark moments of humanity, we can actually transform ourselves into something stronger. So you can look back at the experiences you had with your father, whether it was physical or emotional abuse, beyond measure and oftentimes beyond the imagination of what others may have experienced. But that doesn't have to define your identity, nor does it represent your self-worth. And it doesn't have to plague you the rest of your life. In fact, I want to use an analogy because the mental health sciences are oftentimes mimic the principles of physical health sciences. And I want to give you the analogy of the diamond. The diamond is made from very worthless carbon material, but that carbon material is underneath intense pressure. It is underneath intense pressure and heat for a long period of time, enough that it would crush pretty much anything. And as this pressure And as this heat forms this worthless carbon material, it turns into a diamond. And the value of a diamond is a direct correlation with the light that shines through it. Boy, there's a lot of spiritual analogies there. The value of a diamond is the direct correlation of the light that shines through it. Well, with that being said, we revere a diamond not only because it's beautiful and it's the most expensive gem because of its beauty. We revere that diamond because it's also the hardest. We use diamond tip blades and other sort of processes of the diamond to cut through rock and granite that would crush most anything else. And so negative experiences in our life and our childhood do not have to form wounds in some cases. They can actually form diamonds. You can be in a situation in which you reflect upon the history and think, man, my my alcohol use or my ego or my pride today is the result of some of the trauma that I experienced back then. But you don't have to let that be the case. In fact, you can use the trauma that you experienced, the loss, the pain, the difficulties with your father as a way to shape you and becoming a stronger, better man, not just simply for yourself, but for others. So I look at trauma as one, it is unavoidable. It is a part of life. We are broken human beings and infallible, and we're going to make mistakes. And as a result, we're going to do things that we think are good, but in reality, we hurt, we hurt others. And so you take that trauma, you reflect upon it, but not necessarily as a victim, but as a survivor. There's a difference. If you perceive yourself as a victim, then you're thinking, whoa, there's helplessness. If you see yourself as a survivor, there's hope, hopefulness. Big difference between helplessness and hopefulness. And as a survivor, there's a sense of agency that I have control in terms of how I respond to the experiences that I've had. And I you could make this, I can either have the experiences break me, or I can have it transform me. And when you look at that, when you look at your trauma that you had in your life with your father, and you say, I'm going to use this to transform me, to become a better version of me. Now you're approaching life with a greater sense of resilience and the warrior mindset. Bad things happen to good people all the time. And life is filled with uncertainty, unexpectedness, and trauma, period. And once we embrace that and then look at it as though I have a choice. So I'll give you an example. And a couple weeks go by, and you know, he's in a group and he's he's sitting down, and um he tells me about he's he's uh in college and he's sitting down with this other kid, and this kid starts to describe, man, I'm going through this rough time, going through this rough experience. And he describes something that's similar that happened to him as a young boy, but more younger at the age of eight or nine. And this man that I was working with in therapy is listening intently to this other man, and he's able to identify, relate, process, support, and strengthen that man. And I go, okay, there's your first gem. You were a stronger version of you, helping another man become a stronger version of him because of the experiences that you went through yourself. Could you have done that? Could you have related? Could you have understood had you not gone through the same experience? And he says, There's no way. I would have reacted and said things that I thought were helpful, like just get over it, when in reality it would have been painful. But because I had the experience and could share with him, that moment strengthened him. I go, there's your second gem. You take the experiences that you've had in life that are terrible, painful, and we transform them to become better versions of ourselves. We we develop the habit of looking at our past as an opportunity to be to learn. Um, and then we and and and when you do that, there becomes hope and transformation so that whatever comes your way in the future, you've learned how to cope with that to turn bad experiences into diamonds and not just simply stuff that you're stuck in the mud with. Uh, does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, it does. And I was thinking about, you know, you work with people who give their lives to win a gold medal or to carry out a mission that really does carry a lot of weight for a lot of different individuals, or even when in, you know, a championship, you know, inside the of sports.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Have you seen guys achieve, you know, because they turn their their pain into diamonds, and then once they achieve the thing they were looking to achieve, it didn't bring the healing they were hoping for it to bring. If so, would you maybe help us help the dude process that no matter what you pursue, I mean, uh surely there's things that are worth living for and pursuing. I don't know. Do you understand what I'm trying to process?

SPEAKER_01 28:07

So, yeah, so like when you're working with like the upper 1%, um, or people that are exceptionally talented and very gifted based upon um what they've developed over time, um, whether it's the battlefield and you're in special operations where you take a hundred of the most fittest, smartest men, and you whittle it down to the top five, right? And you you win the, you, you get the beret, or whether you're an Olympic athlete who gets the gold medal or a silver medal, or whether you're a you know, football or basketball player that gets you the championship trophy. What's interesting about that is once you get that, it becomes hollow. You're like, wait a minute, where do I go from here? And if your purpose was entirely based upon trying to win a trophy, you'll realize that once you get that trophy, the high of that trophy doesn't last.

unknown 29:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Um, it is all about the purpose and the man you choose to be and the impact you have on the lives around you that are most important. So, can I can I give you an example? A real world example.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Do you know who the most decorated Olympian is with the most gold medals?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

I mean, I'm gonna say Michael Phillips, but well done.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

He has 20 plus gold medals. Do you know what he's also known for after he finished his Olympic career, after all those gold medals?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Uh I believe depression.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yes, he he actually looked at himself in the mirror and said, I'm gonna die. I had I feel empty and I feel hollow and I have no sense of purpose. Where do I go from here? What is my calling in life? Because I thought my calling in life was just to win the trophies and the and the um medals. And here's a guy who's got like, you know, a $50 million sponsorship through Gatorade. Uh he's well-known icon throughout the world. He has a level of um attention and celebrity status beyond measure. And yet he's looking at himself who's hollow. And after he, and he and he wanted to kill himself. And so he went in, he was hospitalized, he got treatment. And afterwards, he came out and he says, Man, I'm bigger than the trophies. I my life is based upon purpose, not trophies. And in some cases, a trophy for a man could be money, it could be business, it could be the number of hits they get on social media for videos that they make. Um, it could be something that we chase that is some form of idol worship. Um, and once you realize you're bigger than that, then and you have a life based upon purpose, and you can even take the pain that you have and transform it into purpose. Um, now you're living a life. I don't want to say of happiness, because happiness is a fleeting experience, but you're living a life based upon contentment, satisfaction, and fulfillment. Um and like I said, happiness is very fleeting. Uh and if we want it, we need it, but there's a difference between sometimes happiness and fulfillment.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

That's so good. It reminds me of I think it's Victor Frankl and was it Nietzsche? And they had two different ideas as far as the meaning of life. Are you familiar with this quote?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Oh, yes. Man search for meaning, uh, for sure, with Victor Frankel and Nietzsche, who's like the guy who's like, hey man, God's dead.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

And they were they were on, you know this, but just for our listeners, they were on this conversation, which is a powerful conversation, whether you're running a business or your family or you're trying to break generational cycles. The Nietzsche believed that man's purpose was pleasure. And Frankel, Victor Frankel said, No, I don't think so. I think man distracts himself with pleasure when he has no real purpose. And so it's trying to figure out this idea of how do you move from this idolatry of pursuing pleasure to flipping the script and saying, I'm actually going to change change it, I'm going to live my life for the people around me versus for myself.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

That's right. Pleasure is all about being very self-centered and self-focused, whereas purpose is all about other focused. Um, when you take a step back and you realize where does the greatest level of fulfillment come from? Uh, it's oftentimes based upon the shared experiences that you have with others that are both positive and meaningful. Um, you notice I didn't say money in there or trophies, right? So shared positive experiences that are meaningful. And those meaningful experiences are usually experiences that build stronger connections, emotional and relational connections of trust and communication and support and rapport. Or it's we're collectively moving together to achieve a goal. But the only way we can achieve this goal is if we do it together. Um, and then you cross the finish line or you achieve the goal, and now you're sharing and celebrating because you did it based upon the fact that you had that experience with other people, and you could have never accomplished that by yourself. Um, so what's interesting is I you know I said earlier that nobody ever becomes the best version of themselves by themselves. It's also very true that nobody's fulfillment comes from oneself. Um, their fulfillment usually comes through the collective combination of others. And that includes, I'd like to describe if it's okay, a wingman, a wingman, and what a wingman looks like. Because men need wingmen, everybody needs a wingman, and we have an idea in our mind what a meet wingman looks like based upon what secular society is going to tell us. But what is a true authentic wingman look like? Now, I I captured this in the book with with Craig in some of the the sections, and Craig would probably describe me as a wingman for him. Um, so a lot of times we think that a that a wingman is somebody who will provide pleasure. Hey, you're not doing so well, let's go down to the bar, let's let's drink. You're not doing so well, let's go to the strip club. Oh, you're not so doing so well, let's go to the casino, let's go out and do something fun that's pleasant. Um or a wingman who who just says really nice things to you to lift you up, or a wingman who who won't cross you or say anything that upsets you or conflicts with you. But that's really not a wingman. Wingmen are are men who live a life of principle and integrity, a life consistent with the the life that God has designed them for. They speak truth, they are they are strong, not weak, but they are strong, both in terms of their composure of their emotions and how well they navigate uh their relationships and they take care of themselves physically. Now, you can be a strong wingman even in a wheelchair, as long as you're taking care of yourself to the very best of your ability, physically with what you're capable of. But a wingman will also punch you in the face. And you're like, wait a minute, what? A wingman will punch me in my face? Yeah, you need a wingman who will protect you from yourself. Everybody has vulnerabilities, and the adversary knows what those vulnerabilities are, and he's gonna pull on them. And the best way the adversary works is he's wanting you to do something that is destructive, selfish, painful, but he wants you to think that you're justified doing it. He wants you to think you're benevolent in doing it, he wants you to think that it's good that you're doing it. Um, you could be like, man, your wife doesn't know how to communicate with you. Your wife is like emotionally doesn't know how to validate you. And when you walk home through the uh a tough day and you walk through the door, she doesn't really greet you. Oh, and your wife isn't really interested in sex as much as you are. Man, you don't, you don't deserve her. She doesn't deserve you. Uh, you know what? You you you should let her know. You should give her a big chewing out verbally. And by the way, it there's somebody else out there for you. Uh, somebody else. Look, let's just go to the bar, hang out. If another woman comes by, flirt with her if she looks better, if she's if she has the characteristics of of a woman that you think is much more desirable, screw your wife, man. Separate. And oh, by the way, the kids are always better without without you around. When they see you guys arguing, man, the the adversary is gonna play on you so hard and you're gonna be convinced and you're not gonna know it. This is how the adversary works. Like that in many cases. He wants to keep you blind. I have no idea it was a problem. I thought what I was doing was great, or I knew it was a problem, I knew I had some issues, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. Wanted to keep you complacent. Oh, I knew it was a problem, needed to fix the marriage, I needed to be a bit a little bit more intent, but I was so distracted by these other things, I didn't prioritize it. And it grew, and the problem became more or despair. Man, I I knew it was a problem, I wanted to do something about it, but I felt helpless and hopeless, so I didn't do anything. And and you need a wingman that'll come around and want to punch you in the face when you need it because you're blind to it or complacent or distracted or in despair and say, Look, man, you're better than this. Go home, work with your wife, be the man, be the man to have the uncomfortable but respectful conversation. Be the man when you walk through and say, Look, man, I'm gonna be present. Oh, by the way, many men will think that what they're doing is very benevolent by providing, man, I'm working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. I'm providing them a standard of living that is well above most others, but that provision is at the expense of presence. I missed a soccer game, I didn't go to the basketball game. Hey, I really didn't put time and energy into the Valentine's thing with my wife, or it's been a while since we've been on a date night that was really romantic. That's exactly how he wants. You need a wingman that comes along and says, Hey, bud, don't be stupid. I'm gonna punch you in the face, I'm gonna drag your ass out of this bar where you're at, or I'm gonna drag you out of work and I'm gonna bring you back home. You need to have a wingman who's tough. By the way, Josh, I'm on a roll here. There's no benevolence in being weak ever. If somebody comes up to you and you fall, like if somebody says, they're gonna punch, like if somebody comes up to you and you give in because you're being nice, but you're too weak to say no. Either no to the enemy in terms of the pornography, no to, hey, I need to cut my drinking to just two drinks tonight, not to the point of intoxication. Um, no to the business deal in which you're exploiting somebody else or you're lying on your taxes, whatnot. There's no benevolence in being weak. If you turn your other cheek because you that's the only option you have when somebody's striking you, you're just weak. If you turn the other cheek because you choose to, but if you wanted to, you could pummel that guy into the ground. That's benevolence because that's self-control and that's discipline. If you keep saying yes or you give into things because you're thinking you're nice, but in reality it's because you're just weak. There's no benevolence in that. Part of masculinity is being able to be strong, and that's not only to simply fight back, but also to have emotional restraint and to say no and to live a life of purpose. Um we're designed to be warriors, we're designed, and the first part of being a warrior is is mentally. And I want to throw something out there, Josh. Is it Josh or Joshua?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Whatever you call me, Bath.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Well, what do you prefer? I want to say what you're doing. Joshua. Joshua. Um man, Joshua. Warrior in the Bible. Joshua's a warrior in the Bible, if you think about it, right? I mean, amazing. I named my son uh uh Joshua. Um but I take a look at this and I I take a step back and I go, okay. When I when when we when we train men, we not only want to train them to be strong in terms of their faith, but we also want them to be strong emotionally and socially. We want to train them so they can identify their emotions, use their emotions, and and manage their emotions in such a way that they can survive and thrive underneath extraordinary pressures and temptations. But we also want to make them strong socially and honest and speak truth and to love and to be altruistic to rescue, but also to just resource, to understand that yes, you can you can you can find benevolence in feeding the the hungry by giving him bread, but there's also more benevolence in being strong and saying, I'm gonna give you a fishing pole so you can you can you know feed yourself. Um we we have to look at how we are strong. And in our past, we figure out where our moves are, and then moving forward, we figure out who we want to be. So and I I could go off for like hours, so I'll pause for just a moment.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

No, it's so good. You've you've unpacked so much that almost requires multiple conversations because when we talk about raising our children, we are trying to do something we never saw anybody do for us. And so, you know, when we say, how do you help them with their emotional IQ? How do you help them with being able to social and you know socialize with others? There, there's so many great conversations to dig in. I'm just gonna pick two as we start to land the plane. Number one is you mentioned finding a wingman, and I'm thinking about the dude who's like, there ain't nobody. You know, everybody is crooked, wicked, and going to ACL. Where are they gonna find somebody that'll actually punch them in the face if they're going to do something dumb? Where do you find a wingman? Do you have an incredible story of overcoming the home that you were raised in? Or maybe the father wounds that were placed inside your life? If so, I want to share it with other dudes without dads. Simply go to dudeswithout dadspodcast.com and apply to be a guest on the show. The reason it's important to share your story is because when you share what God has done for you, it helps other men believe that God. God can do it for them, and he can. To share your story, head over to Dudes Without Dad's podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

That is a great question. They're there. They are out there. And oftentimes you will find them in places you didn't expect. First of all, you're more likely to find a wingman in a church and in a men's group. And on what I would call the men's retreat in a man cation, you're more likely to find him there than you will in a in a strip club or a bar. You're more likely to find a strong wingman in athletic organizations that support Christ or that you know that this is a man that's on the sports field and who's engaged in that, yet has a strong faith and is willing to pray. Pray for where you can find that wingman because it's very likely you have them around you, but you just don't see them. Let me give an example. Um Tony Cardello is a strong businessman in Kansas City. He has like dealerships, probably the largest dealerships in Kansas City. And he has a really rough past. He a kind of an absent father from his life at times. Served uh four or five, six, seven years in federal prison in Fort Leavenworth, uh dealing narcotics for the for the mafia. Came out full, full on tattooed. And if you ran into him in a back alley, you'd be like, dude, whoa, this guy's gonna feel like he's a monster. And yet he changed his life, shaped his life, and now he's probably one of the most remarkable, strongest Christians I've ever seen, and is shaping the lives of others through the purpose that he has. And he is a great wingman, and the place that you're gonna find him is in a car dealership, but he wears his faith on his chest proudly. Um, he has a social media um podcast called TC Stronger, which is all about making men stronger versions of themselves. And stronger is the acronym that he uses as a value to define his life and who he wants to live by on a daily basis. Uh today I'm gonna wake up and I'm gonna be stronger. Um, so I just want to encourage people to pray, keep their eyes open, and find the man who lives a life according to values, not trophies.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

When you say things like you say, find a man who lives with a set of values, not with a set of trophies. That's a mic drop. And you know, for a dude that's listening or someone shared this podcast with him, they can could be even saying, What are values? Like, and I know that sounds so simple and so like a small of a question. Yeah, but I don't know if dudes without dads always get it when it comes down to hey, you need to be choosing your friends versus letting your friends choose you, and these are the they didn't have nobody. They that whoever you know accepted them in into a gang or showed love or expression of anything, you move to that, and so you don't think about value-driven decisions, you think about, well, I mean, if they show me love or support, I'm gonna just roll with them. Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Let me give you a classic example. So you can have a guy that says, Man, I'm really loyal. I love this value of loyalty. And so if I call this guy up, he's gonna be there and he's gonna support me and he will have my back. Uh, and then he'll take me to the bar in the strip club. Uh, and so so, okay, great. You you he was there to help you functionally and he was there for a shoulder to cry on, but then he took you in this direction that actually was unhealthy and separated you from your from your wife and your kids, right? So a good wingman, and wingmen aren't perfect, right? But a good wingman will be honest, he will be loyal, he will be committed, he will be caring. And what I mean by caring is he will love you even when it's inconvenient. He will um be emotionally composed. So if he sees you starting to emotionally unravel, he's not gonna unravel with you. He's actually gonna help you stay composed so you can think clearly. Um, he's he's a man of self-discipline. So if he says what he's gonna do, he's gonna do it. And so he's if he says he'll show up, he's gonna be there on time or he's gonna be early. Um he's a man of excellence, so that when he does pursue something, it's not just like, let me just put a half-ass effort in. I'm gonna, if I do this, I'm gonna do this well. I'm gonna do the ordinary with excellence every day. And he's a man of faith. He's a man who reads the Bible, he's a man who's willing to share with you his relationship with Christ, he's a man who's willing to share with you his own faults and his own mistakes. But more importantly, he's a man who will speak truth into you and he will be strong enough so that if he sees you doing things that take you away from the man that God aspires you to be, he will be an obstacle and he'll make it difficult for the adversary to win.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah. I've got one last question. And I just want our listeners to know that it's okay to ask, it's okay to seek, it's okay to knock. And that's actually how you find and get the dudes to say yes. If even if it takes you four or five different attempts to call, to email, to drive to the dude's house that you want to mentor you or to be your wingman, you have to ask, you have to seek, you have to knock. You can't wait on God to have that person show up at your door. If you want that wingman in your life, go identify them and go get them. And so this is my this is my final question for you, uh, Dr. C. I'm gonna drop you right now inside of a a chair, and right across in front of you is the silent type. It's a dude who doesn't talk to anybody about anything, and especially about his emotions or feelings or his past. He's got stuff, but he don't want to talk about nothing with nobody. He's right in front of you. What do you want him to know?

SPEAKER_01 50:43

A couple of things. One is I understand he's got walls, and those walls are helpful and they are valuable, and so his silence is a is a an analogy for the wall. I don't want to open up, I don't want to talk, I got a lot going on up here, but I want to keep it there. And I would tell him that those walls are are okay for a time, but they're not okay to stay up. That if he ever wants to be the man who he desires to be and aspires to be, the great of us, the greatest of us always learn how to take those walls down and invite people in. And it's okay for him to put those walls up as he walks out into the secular world and has to deal with the battles and the pain and the frustrations and the challenges. But in order for him to constantly grow and be the best version of him, he has to learn how to take those walls down at the right time. And the reason for that is because it's not just for him, it's for his son, it's for his daughter. Because our children will mimic our behavior, and if we don't learn and model for them how to take those walls down, they'll do the same darn thing. And if you want some, and every parent wants a better life for their children. So you're doing a really good job modeling for your son how to stay stoic underneath high pressure conditions and how to keep it in, good, but it's not sufficient. In fact, those if he doesn't learn how to let people in, he won't ever become the best version of himself either. So this isn't just about you. You're sitting there going, man, I don't want to open up and talk because this is about me and I'm uncomfortable. Well, you're right, it is uncomfortable for you, but don't be selfish. Oh, that's a little bit of a different sort of spin on it, isn't it? You're being selfish, not for me, but for your children, for your family. Every great, if he's sitting there across from me and he says, Well, my father abandoned me. Yeah, well, you're also abandoning your son emotionally. You might be present at home, but if you don't know how to drop those walls, you're still absent.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Yeah, just want to remind our listeners as we bring it to a close, it's the father's will to heal you, to restore you. And although sometimes it's very painful to face the things that have caused us a ton of pain and grief, and maybe even trauma of not really understanding why certain things happen the way they do. There is a father, there is a God who loves you. And uh, Dr. C, thank you so much for sharing a little bit of the wisdom. Do you have something you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah, I got two two two lasting statements.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Romans 8 28. Man, we're in Christ. God will work everything for good for us. That means everything to include the problems and the pain that we had in our life from our fathers. Romans 8.28. And then also Romans 8, uh, Romans, is it 8, 38 through 39? Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Nothing. And so, as men, sometimes we do things that we're ashamed of or we're embarrassed of, that might be part of the father wounds that we carry forward, and we're thinking, man, nobody can love me or care for me or like me because of who I become. I'm gonna tell you, there's nothing that can separate you from God's love because he loves you unconditionally.

unknown 54:51

Oh God.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Yeah, I think there's lies that sometimes we believe that's functions as truth, even when it's a lie. Craig Rochelle quote at the very end of the podcast. And here's here is the idea is that we end up believing that we've done things to other people that can't be forgiven, and that leads us to a grave and it creates generational cycles. Well, that's not biblical. You know, the the Bible makes it clear that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And so during your most dirty moments, Christ died for that. You can be forgiven, you can have healing, and you can have restoration, and you can break generational cycles for your family and their families to come. Dr. C, thank you so much for what for being here today. Um the book is called Heal Your Hurting Mind. Go grab it now. It's number five on the New York Times. It's been such a blessing to have you today, and I'll see you in the future.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

Awesome, Joshua. Forgiveness is more for you than that. I had interpreted for the first time in my life. It's just easy. Just easy.