The Affair — Now What? | Men Who've Been Through It Tell the Truth

SPEAKER_02 0:00

If this episode was sent to you, I want you to stop. Before you press pause, before you get defensive, before you decide that this isn't for you, I want to invite you to just stay. Because somebody in your life loves you enough to send you something uncomfortable. This is not an accident. This is not an attack. This is someone saying without saying it. I see what's going on. And I don't want to watch YouTube. Everything.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

My life was just spyrolling downhill depression, alcoholism, incarceration, death by despair. One guy who showed up is just Jesus. If you can give a man clarity and community, he can start to live out his purpose. You can break generational curses of alcoholism.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Welcome to Dudes Without Dads, the show that trained men how to become the dads they never had. Gentlemen, welcome to the roundtable discussion. My first question to the table is this Why do men risk everything for something temporary?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I'm the father of three and uh been married for 14 years, been together 20 years, two businesses in a newly launching startup company. Um I I still try to figure out that answer myself, um, of making sure that I'm not shortening um I think my desires um for something I can't see in the future. Um and um I think the reason why some men um decide to go after what's quick and satisfying uh rather than what uh is lasting is because I know like for me, um I didn't have an in-home father that talked about uh the future, uh, didn't talk about what could be or to prepare for or legacy. Um I know in my household, uh my sons have been watching me talk about the startup company for eight years. Oh, it's gonna be in an app, it's gonna it's gonna reach pastors all over the world, it's gonna do this. And after eight years, we finally just hit the app store and we're still in beta. Um, and so uh I've learned that through mentorship, uh, knowing that uh, you know, whether it's a business or marriage, there's some things that just take time. And the longer that they take, uh the better it actually gets if you can stick with it. Uh it's the it's the it's what I call the the long play, is the strong play. It's taking the scenic route to see all the joys and and the things in life instead of uh trying to get in the fast lane, get fast money, uh, get quick influence. Um, I think a lot of men they they see, especially in our world today, and I kind of live in the creator economy as well, where you know, someone goes viral, there's virality, they got hundreds of views, they got millions of followers, and uh you have this get rich, quick scheme to uh hey, grow your business, grow, you know, your bank account 90 days, language. That is just um I think that's just overkill in in any format today, whether it's YouTube, Instagram, uh, and so they hear these things instead of hearing slow down, wait, build, partner, things that take a relationship. And so I I think because of the culture and the language, and especially here being in America, there's a dream we're trying to build, the American dream. And people don't want it yesterday, they want their money and they want it now. Uh, and so um I I think it's cultural, it's in the language, uh, but it's also passed down, or it's influence too well. Um, instead of like, hey, take your time, uh, build the character you need to build, um, go through the schooling, you know, everybody wants a quick course. And uh yeah, it's it's it's in the language, it's in the influence. Um, it's in the ingredients, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Thank you, Antoine. Anyone else?

SPEAKER_05 4:40

A proverb came to mind. Um I'm Curtis Honeycutt. I'm from uh I'm I'm from Maryland. I live in Sweden now with my wife and and three little kids, been married 10 years. Um I the proverb that came to mind was desire without knowledge is not good. How much more will hasty feet miss the way? And then later in that same proverb, he says, What each man desires is this. So, like he Solomon, he's giving you the answer. He's giving you the answer of what that desire actually is. Desire without knowledge is not good. How much more will hasty feet miss the way? What each man desires is this unfailing love. Like, here's what you're actually looking for. But desire without knowledge is not good. It was like Jesus is on the cross, and what does he say? Forgive them, they don't know what they're doing, like they don't they don't understand what they're doing, they don't understand what's happening. It's like in in these moments when we're choosing something where we just rush into it because it's what other people are doing or what feels good or what makes sense, it's like, no, man, like if if you're not getting it, it's not the it's not satiety, right? Like I'm not getting satiated, I'm getting something that's giving me a false sense of what my body actually wants. Like, even if you go to diet and exercise, people think, well, I have a fake sugar in a uh a coke, whatever, zero, whatever people drink. And so it's better for me. But what you don't realize is you're getting the fake sugar that creates this idea of I'm I'm getting the sweetness, and my brain says it, but I don't get the satiety in my body, so I crave it more later. And it's like you'd be better off just eating sugar. And it's like, no, it's like what you actually want is the unfailing love. And if we're not willing to put in the time and put in the effort to create that, because we believe in Christ, we don't believe him. I believe Jesus is the Messiah, but I don't believe what he's saying. I don't believe that long obedience in the same direction is actually gonna give me the fullness of life and that full fulfillment that I'm looking for. But but it absolutely is. And if you read history and you look at it and don't just look at the news cycle and don't don't just look at TikTok and social media, you will see that the pattern is there and the pattern is obvious. You know, the people that finish well are the ones that they're their hasty feet aren't missing. They're not just rushing into things, they're they're trying to understand what that desire is with their creator, they're getting that in line, and then they're pursuing that thing diligently.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Let me dig this well a little bit deeper. Thank you, Curtis. Um, Kirger Shell has a great quote. It says, A lie believed functions as truth, even when it's a lie. When men are in the middle of making decisions that are going to affect their legacy, what lie are they actually telling themselves that feels true when they're in the middle of it?

SPEAKER_06 7:41

My name is Gabriel Nievis. Um, I'm from Santa Ana, California. I've been married um May 3rd, it'll be 24 years. So a couple months here. 24 years. That's a miracle in itself, you know. But um I think we we we tend to just we tend we're very good at at bargaining with ourselves, you know, at justifying certain things and certain behaviors, you know. Um, we see it though throughout scripture all the time. Like, did even from the beginning, did he really say this? You know, did did did the Lord, did God really say you can't do this, you know? And I think it starts with, at least for me, man, it's start compromise, starts with with a thought, you know? How far can I go? It's like it's like I I look at it like my kids, man. I have three kids, and when they were little, I would tell them, hey, don't do this, you cannot do this, son. Okay, pretty much don't don't cross this line. I'm not kidding you, man. They would get as close as possible to that line, but technically, Dad, I'm not I'm not crossing over that line, right? But you know, um, I think that's how we are as humans, man, as men, at times we just tend to um we see how far we can stretch it, right? We see how far we can go without really giving in. But you know, um you guys know, man, the the the Bible's very clear when it when it says, man, that the flesh is weak. You know, Paul had this battle with himself throughout scripture, man. Why do I keep giving in to these things that I hate? I know the good I ought to do, but that I don't do, right? So I think it's that, man. I think it starts with a thought. It starts with with with with a with a compromise, starts with a thought, and then we end up giving in, at least from my perspective.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Uh thank you, brother. Anyone else?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah, Joshua, let me add in just a second, Roll. Um, I'm Mike Wade, and um I've been married 38 years, five kids, seven grandkids, and um, I still think I have the best marriage of anybody I know, but it's taken 38 years of hard work to get that. Yeah, and a lot of what I would say, speaking into this, surrender. And I think if we get down to the heart of everyone as a man, especially, we embark upon our adventure, our venture. Our I have six businesses. We're starting a new one right now. So you get on these ventures, you you you start a project, you start a career, you you do the thing, and the daily battle is the war for us to feel like we're on the throne of our thing, and now it's a rights issue. I have the right to, I have the right for you to get on board with me, and I have the right to feel a certain way. I have the right to, because I'm doing a thing, and he can even have some God moments in that thing. But if you scoot Jesus off the throne and you're on the throne of your thing, the war is on. And like my brother just said, it's just a matter of time before you rationalize anything, barter away anything to stay on that throne. And as soon as I think I have the right to work this hard, I have the right to go on this trip, I have the right to feel good right in this moment. It's just a moment I because I'm working hard. I got nobody understands me. I have the you've totally replaced the savior on the throne with you, and that's that's all of our issues, right? But how does that work in relationships? How does it work in your business? You can create a lot of great things in business and everything else, but if you're on the throne, it'll eventually come to ruin and destroy everything around you. And it you said the word Joshua, your legacy goes from it's a now thing. And my brother said, This is we're in an immediacy culture. I want to get it quick, I want to get it now, I want to have the money now, and it's a then thing. Jesus is a kingdom, and so we immediately, when we get onto the throne, we become experientially in the now instead of the kingdom then. We freak we think about us today instead of great, great grandkids down the road. Jesus sees the great grandkids, like you said, it creeps in when we're on the throne, and then we can't help it until we're broken to get off the throne. We get to decide what that brokenness looks like by how long we take to get there. But for me, it all starts as I have to have repentant moments almost daily, especially like Antoine, starting up something. Starting up something. I've got my my two mitts on that thing, and almost daily I gotta go, oh I just gotta sorry, because I shudder to think what that thing could do to me or to my family or to those I hope to have influence in down the road if I keep my mitts on it, keep on the throne.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

I want to thank you for taking time to listen to this story. And if there's something inside of here that is adding value to you, I want you to stop and hit subscribe. I am on mission to help men become the dads they never had. Many of us struggle with father wounds, addictions, identity issues. And really what we need is we need a model. We need to see people that have broken the patterns and come alongside of them. I want to simply invite you to join me on the journey. Every Thursday, we're gonna release a new episode. Each episode is gonna help you and others become the dads they never had. Hit subscribe and share with a friend. Now let's get back to the story. Yeah, Mike, thank you for bringing the uh the experience inside this conversation. Um it really does, you know, to sum at least a little bit of this portion up. We have to determine if we're living or if we're dead or not. And whether we're living or dead really determines whether we're in a right relationship with God based on what Christ has done for us on the cross. Everything is an outflow of whether or not I'm living or dead. Dead men do what God says. Living men, they're not quite sure yet. The greatest greatest invitation, the exchange that God offers is his righteousness for our life. And it requires us to say, it is no longer I who lives, but it's Christ that lives within me. The issue could be a salvation or a relationship issue with the King of Kings. Everything starts in a right relationship with God. But if you are in a right relationship with God and you have justified this and the Holy Spirit has been speaking to you, here's the next question. If a man wanted to end this before he gets caught, before it explodes, what would you guys? What advice would you share with him?

SPEAKER_05 14:56

When I kept silent, my bones wasted away. Like open your mouth, talk James 5:16. Confess your sins to one another, you will be healed. You're not gonna do it alone. That's the first thing. The second thing is understanding, like scripture says, We have the mind of Christ, Paul said. Like, we don't believe this, like we don't believe what we actually have access to. We keep giving in to the lie of like this is this is who I am, or this is I can't beat this thing. I can't. We believe in Christ, we don't believe him. I so you believe, like anybody would say, Amen. Like God created the world, amen. God created you, amen. God, God can God can help me actually reframe and change the way that I think. Uh I don't really know. Like, come on, man. Like, therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing, and perfect will. Like you have the ability to do this. This was Jesus' gospel. Like, repent, change your mind. The kingdom of heaven has come near. Like it's here. You have access now. You don't have to wait. And that's the lie is like, I have to wait. I'm not there yet. I'm gonna get to this other place. It's like, no, today's the day of salvation. Now, like you have access right now in this moment.

SPEAKER_06 16:30

100%, man. I I agree with Curtis. And I think at times, man, you guys know we have to we have exactly what the scripture says, man. If your eye catches you, uh causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand cat causes you to do whatever, cut it off. It's not literally meaning chop your hand off and cut your eye off, but there's certain things, man, that you gotta get rid of. You know, I'll never forget, you know, I come from a lifestyle of addiction, you know, and when I got saved, in my culture, I think everybody's culture, um, you know, everyone drinks, everyone drinks wherever you go, you show up, and if you don't show up with like at least 12 pack, man, you're like disrespecting the house or something, because how could you not show up with some brewski's, you know? So, anyways, um, when I first got out, it was that like uh there was alcohol everywhere, and I remember family, uncles that love me dearly would offer me some alcohol, right? And I was always like, Whoa, I'm okay, I don't want to drink, you know. But at first they were like, Oh, does your religion not let you drink? Okay, Gabriel, we understand, don't give him alcohol, you know. But then it became, it went months and months started happening where I was just like, no, I'm okay. I didn't I chose not to drink. But the reason I chose not to drink, because I knew that was gonna be the vehicle for me to go because I because I'm an extremist. I take I I can't just drink a beer. I'm gonna we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna drink, we're gonna drink, you know. And next thing you know, I'll end up at the Connect's house. Connect, meaning at the at the at the at the crack house or something, you know, and they would look at me like, man, Dave, like, why are you so extreme like this? You think you're thinking one alcohol, one drink of alcohol is gonna get you to go there? And I say, you know what? I gotta cut it out because I know myself, you know. So, anyways, and there's certain things with certain behaviors, like we said, whether it's pornography, whatever it is, you gotta cut certain things out. You know, you don't set yourself up, man. If if if you know you're struggling with whatever it is, uh social media, man, get then get rid of it for a season, man. If if you're struggling with pornography, man, then stop. Get rid of the get rid of the computer in your room by yourself. So there's certain things, I think, practical things that we can do not to say we gotta cut it off, just like Jesus said, man. Cut it off. So at least that's what I had to do, man. To cut certain things off, man, in my home. I can't you guys not. We've had we and people think we're crazy. I don't know. We have one TV, it's in the living room, it's a big old TV now. Like, thank God, you know. But we got one, there's there's no there's no TVs in anybody's rooms, you know. I got some teenage boys, and it's like, hey, now you don't need to be in your TV in the room, man. You're good. You want to watch something? Come watch it out here, make yourself accountable. So, anyways, that's just practical things.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Gabriel, let me add to that real quick, if you don't mind. Um, I love Curtis brought in Romans 12 because offering ourselves up is so important. Um, but going back to addressing the present-day culture, and we as men's, we're in the moment. And sometimes we'll look at a verse like that as a great formula to get me to my next, to get me my solution, to get my wife to still like me or not leave me, whatever it is you're totally afraid of, or the conflict that's that's smacking you in the face. Well, if I if I just do this thing, then it's gonna be okay. And that's not what the verse promises, and that's just our again a culture of processing formulas for our benefit, because the real the real premise here is God's glorification. So we do things not for us when we're not on throw, we do things for him, therefore, even great passages like that are for his glorification. We tend to per, especially in America, tend to personalize those verses. You know, we're gonna get all that. Here's our next quick fix. And Jesus, like, I ain't promising you your comfort tomorrow. But if you glorify me, there's something even greater than that. And we've got to get our eyes not fixed on the immediate now, it's gotta be his glorification, his next, his kingdom. Because again, if we have any shot of legacy and affecting our great grandkids, it's gotta start there. It can't start with what's in it for me ever, especially in scripture.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

So well said, and I want to transition to another story. And so just landing the plane on this conversation. I'm thinking about the dude, or it could be even a female who's in a situation they know they shouldn't be in. The most powerful move you can make is not getting away with it, it's actually ending it before it costs you everything. And so I I beg, I encourage, I plea with you think about the end in mind. What do you want the story to look like when everyone's around your grave? What are you what are you passing on, blessing or curses as an example for others to follow? Not to condemn you, not to put, not to say, hey, it's your responsibility, your fault. But what is our responsibility is to glorify a God above who loves us. He just loves us. And if we're willing to make our way straight, he'll end up taking care of the rest. The lies we believe are not worth the damage that it cost over an extended period of time. And so I want to step into another story. And it's actually the one who just found out. Not because they were snooping, but because something felt a little off. And they couldn't pretend with they couldn't start pretending anymore. And then they saw it. In one moment, in one message, one name, one thread, their entire life rearranged itself, not slowly, but all at once. And the first thing they felt was not even anger, it was confusion. Because they suddenly did not know which memories were real and which ones weren't. They didn't know what was true and not true. It was like they were living inside of some other person's life, and they felt like they had nowhere to go. Now I want you to put yourself inside of this person's shoes, and I want you to think about being betrayed. You've loved, you've honored, you kept your vows, you've did everything that you're supposed to do. Why does, and this is the question for the round table where we're starting at, why does betrayal actually do what does it do to a person's identity?

SPEAKER_00 23:53

The first thing I think of, because today's my mom's birthday and I lost her recently. The first thing I think of, there's a death of just about everything you knew or once thought you knew. And the the void that comes from death. It's paralyzing. And so you can't start with, how do I get on the other end? You start, where am I at now? is because nothing seems right, nothing is normal, nothing has been right. It's been a fabrication, it's been false, and what do I do now in this? I don't know if there's anything more uh uh debilitating and paralyzing than that kind of death. That your whole storyline, your whole narrative is just come down. So what is true?

SPEAKER_02 24:57

I've got three girls, and unfortunately, I do know what it's like for one to have loved somebody and thought that that person loved them the same way, only to find out and you know it can get deeper. I'm just sharing from a father's heart who understands his daughter's heart, that person ends up wondering is something wrong with them and why were they not good enough to be loved? Any other experiences or thoughts here?

SPEAKER_05 25:42

Man, usually we can't get this group to shut up, and now there's that's a big question. Yeah, but Cody, you have good stuff on this, man. I want to hear you, I want to hear you talk, not just your shirt talking. Your shirt talking, but I want to hear your mouth talk.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

I wanted to make sure my audio was working before I felt like I had so much audio trouble, and then I was like, they started pressure washing the office I'm in, and now they're weed eating outside. I'm like, the enemy doesn't want me to have this conversation, apparently. Better be proud with the weed eater. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's gonna have to send a meteor.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Yeah, so what does betrayal actually do to a person's identity?

SPEAKER_04 26:22

So uh to go off of the death thing, I think what's surprising about it was maybe from my wife's perspective, I have in my story what I called our open kimono moment. I I came home from work one day and I came to my wife, and I remember driving home from work. I didn't plan on telling her everything at that point, but it was killing me, and I knew it. And when I was driving home, this thought popped into my head, this phrase that said, My marriage be damned, I have to get right with God. Like she, if she leaves me, she leaves me. If she stabs me in the chest with a steak knife, that's that's the cost, right? And um, I just had to get it out. It was like you're throwing up, is the way it felt. Like I could not, uh couldn't keep that in. So we we unpacked a lot just in that one night, and I think the the expectation of that from her, or the expectation I had of her was anger. Uh, what I got returned from her was her willingness to die, about her expectations, like that night, and she didn't know she was doing this at the time, but she could unpack it. But that night, she made the commitment that she was going to the cross, she was gonna die, and whatever expectations she had about the marriage, whatever I had about the marriage, that old marriage was gone, it's done. We're starting over brand new. It's like we started having tried to date again and figure each other out. We're not leaving the marriage, but we're two different people now. That part, um, but I am now, let's see, that was 2014. So I'm I'm removed from it these many years. I now have five kids. We have a fantastic relationship that was built off of something totally dead. We had to murder all of our expectations of what marriage was supposed to look like, how I was supposed to fulfill her identity, how she was gonna fulfill mine. And it was just totally wiped clean, and we had to make the commitment that we were gonna sit on the same side of the table and battle against whatever this was that that took us out. So it's like, why do men stray? I mean, I could I could tell you maybe my opinion on that, but um that that's the experience for what does betrayal do for her? It cost her everything, and she would take that too. It cost her um cost her a death. She had to die to herself because of me.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

I would say um what felt like betrayal, um uh can oftentimes um blind your identity. I I know for me it made me feel rejected and abandoned, and growing up with these abandonment issues, even as a grown man, is even more embarrassing, uh, especially when you're abandoned um uh or felt abandoned from uh a woman. Um, my mother, she's an amazing woman, but uh me being a child at the time, not fully understanding why my mom had to work two jobs and she was in ministries, trying to stay, you know, with her face and feet to the cross, and but not having that mother-son connection, the older I got, um, especially in my mom, she didn't like make my basketball game. I think she made one basketball game, and I was like, please, can you go? Um, and then that carried over into my marriage, and I didn't know that. So, whenever uh my wife didn't show up or maybe was late to something, even though my wife is the sweetest woman in the world, and she has been almost at every square inch of my life, any little moment where I felt betrayed, like, whoa, did you not know? Were you not looking out for me, or were you not like caring about that? Crossed over. That sense of betrayal led to a sense of abandonment, which led to which led to an identity of feeling rejected. And uh once I realized that, once, once I realized that, I said, first you gotta girl up. You gotta give her up a little bit. And one, forgive. Um, forgive your mother. It wasn't even her intentions, wasn't her heart. And then second of all, uh, because you know they say you marry your mother, that's kind of true, that's pretty much true. Uh I had to go and ask for forgiveness of my wife because I know their heart, uh, and I know their capacities now to love, to extend, and um uh trading grace for the the illusion of being betrayed um is is false identity. That's something that's that's false. Um I I think oftentimes um I I think it's I think it's um very engineer, very engineeric. I'm gonna say it like that because I can't find another word, of the enemy to make us feel that God has betrayed us. And we don't understand it, like, oh, God wasn't there for you when this happened, God wasn't there for you, he didn't stop that from happening. You just feel like, whoa, like God, where were you? And and if anything, that I think I know is that the the male figures and mentors that I've had in my life gave me a sense of identity through proximity. So when it feels that God is in proximity to me or running towards me or with me, uh, I've lost that identity uh in Christ at times because I didn't feel that God was near. So I felt betrayed in that manner. So learning how to deal with being betrayed, uh feeling abandoned, uh, and then having my identity wrapped in rejection, um it it um yeah, it prolonged and delayed some growth that I needed to take that needed to take place. Uh, but understanding that God never leaves you nor he fails you, uh he's he is always near you. Not only that, but he's always continuously running after you purposefully, I think healed a lot of those wounds and um even forgiving myself for um kind of accepting being rejected and being portrayed. And then also, you know, though you get the the the more wise you you kind of get a little bit that know that we're dealing with humans all the time. People are gonna make mistakes, people are not gonna maybe fully know what they're doing, and and to really more so take it easy on people as I take it more easy on myself, too, as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

So, yeah, appreciate thank you for sharing that, Antoine. And I I have one more question inside of this person's story. Um, and it's kind of you know, there's no way that we can do justice on how to try to help or guide or lead or give wisdom or advice, but we're gonna do our best for somebody that is in the middle of being or has been betrayed. What advice wisdom would you give them and then also connect it to the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow? Because how that person navigates could have something to do with whether or not they see a uh a godly sorrow or a worldly type uh sorrow of repentance. And so what would the roundtable's uh advice be for someone that finds themselves in that situation right now?

SPEAKER_06 34:23

I would say we have to we have to look at look at the scriptures, man. One of the things that ministers to me so much is the ultimate betrayal. We know that Jesus was betrayed by one of his own, you know, and he knew knowing who it was that was gonna betray him, that that that gets me all the time, man. Like he still washed his feet. And you know, if that was if that was you, Josh, if that was me, Antoine, we would have probably I would have washed that dude's feet, but I guarantee you I would have I would have got that pinky toe and I would have just I know what you're about to do right here, man. You know, but what I'm saying is the the servant's heart, uh just just that that that example there, and I've always asked myself, like, Lord, like how can you forgive somebody like this? That that that betrays you like this, the ultimate betrayal, right? And so then when I get disappointed, when I get let down, when I feel betrayed, I find myself, okay, Lord, how did you handle this betrayal, right? He was still obedient, he was still obedient. So um, to me, it's just always like looking, looking at the examples of one bigger than mankind, Jesus, right? Because I mean, scripture is very, very clear, man. It's better to put your trust, your confidence in God than man, because man will let you down.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

For sure. I like that. Let me offer up some because I I love the progression of this because it goes from somebody trapped basically in hell, knowing that God's the only way out, no matter how bleak the immediate future looks, so they run to the righteousness, but still fearing the impending reaction, and then trying to understand the process of dying that's gonna have to go through on the other side. You've been dying for years, months, years, whatever, and being patient with that. But I love the question because it suggests something about true repentance with God, brings what we're really truly after is the shalom of God. And when you come to God in true repentance, he ushers in that almighty peace, that shalom that helps you understand even Jesus before the cross, I see the greater good because I'm doing what the Father says. I am at peace. Let's do this thing. And so if you're truly repentant for the glorification of God and the breaking of your soul, there's less of an urgency. So you're gonna do this then, right? Because you see, I'm, and it looks like another formula. If I come to you and then this will happen, it's very transactional. I feel like when you've truly come before the face of God in repentance, transactions are out the window. They're gonna be what they're gonna be. God is gonna work all things out to the good, to what he sees as good. And therefore, I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do, and I am repenting for the shalom to come back into this relationship, however, that needs to look. And I think that just looks different.

SPEAKER_05 37:46

That's good. When Gabriel, when you were talking and talking about Jesus being betrayed, that was so that was what happened to me the morning. Y'all on the on on the the call know this, but like my brother was was murdered in 2021. Like I wake up to the text, my find out my brother gets shot and killed, his wife was shot and killed, my 10-year-old nephew was shot four times, and now I have to I gotta figure out how to deal with this. And um, that Gabriel, that was the thing I was wrestling with. I was like, how? Like, how can and this was a dude we knew, like this was a friend. Like, how? Why? How like you're just so confused and you're trying to figure it out. And dude, I heard it as clear as one of y'all talking to me. I'm the we were reading through Matthew at the time, me and a group of guys. So I I didn't know what to do. Like, I got the text, and then I'm just kind of sitting there, I look in the mirror, I'm not crying, I'm not there's no reaction yet. I'm just like, I'm like, am I reading this right? Am I still sleeping? And then I just I just naturally went and sat down. It's like, I don't know, 5:36 in the morning. I sat down and I just opened up to where we were reading, and we're in Matthew 14. John the Baptist was beheaded. All right, well, that was that's Jesus's blood. What did he do? Well, he got in a boat. Well, I don't have a boat, but I have a car. And so I just I just got in the car and I just drove. And then I this is and then it just hit me. It's just like a ton of bricks. I'm just I'm I'm crying, I'm weeping, and then I start having that conversation with God. Like, how how am I how am I gonna get past this? How am I supposed to forgive this man? And dude, it's clear as day, I forgave what they did to my son. Like, I I have been here, and it just like it was just this, like it didn't take it away, but it was this moment of like you hear it all the time, right? People are like, Yeah, but you don't understand, like you haven't been there. It's like you have a father that understands, like he chose to be there so that you can never say, Well, you don't understand. It's like, no, no, no, he gets it. But on a practical level, like the next week, like you guys know, I had to preach a sermon on forgiveness in five days. Right. So now it's like, all right, well, I'm not gonna go preach this if I'm just not if it's not true, I'm not wrestling with it. But dude, I'm telling you, he just took it from me that week. Like, I there was no bitterness, there was no anger to the point where I felt guilty. Here, if when I think back, here was the thing that the Spirit of God prompted me to do right, that he had trained me up until that moment to do right. I blocked out everything, other than the best people around me that I knew I needed to get this out to, and I needed them to pour into me. I needed them to listen. There were two things that I allowed in my life that week. Those people, I trained like a maniac. I had a marathon schedule that Saturday, so I trained like a maniac. So three things that week. And then the third was I just sat on the back of my truck and stared at the river every spare moment I had. No phone, no music, no distraction, you just sit in the pain and you just sit in it. And it's like that, he healed me in it. It was like this balm of just, I'm just gonna be with you. If your promise is that at the end of Jesus' sermon, he goes, This is what you ultimately get. It's a life built on a rock. The rain came, the wind blew, the streams rose, beat against that house, and it did not fall. I've been training. All right, I've been with you, I've been on this journey. If this is the promise, show me. And he showed me. It's like I felt betrayed. I felt like it wasn't fair. And he healed me to the point where there was not only this freedom in it, but it led to the freedom of others. Like it, it became, it birthed a ministry because of it. It's like he will use these things. He's the ultimate chess player. He can move these things around, he knows how to move, whatever. There's nothing Satan can throw at him that he can't figure out how to counter that move and set up for the next win. Like there's nothing that can be done against him. He's the he's the great grandmaster. There's nothing that can be done. And it's like honestly realizing that, understanding that, sitting in the silence with him, going back to scripture, like Gabriel said, like you, whether you are betraying or whether you have been betrayed, there is healing on the other side of this if you let it go.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Do you have an incredible story of overcoming the home that you were raised in? Or maybe the father wounds that were placed inside your life? If so, I want to share it with other dudes without dads. Simply go to dudeswithout dadspodcast.com and apply to be a guest on the show. The reason it's important to share your story is because when you share what God has done for you, it helps other men believe that God can do it for them, and he can. To share your story, head over to Dues Without Dads Podcast today. We got to believe that too, because a lot of times we actually don't believe that healing is possible. And what I've noticed, I've been, you know, I've worked at seven different churches, and uh as you guys have worked and been around people, oftentimes those that have been betrayed, they say, F you, I'm gonna go betray you, you know, and they end up doing the same thing and doing dirty. And now you got two individuals doing dirty, and they're just flicking each other off, and then they run into this cycle of where do we go now? And so I want us to have one follow up here, and then I'll try to land the plane because we're almost done. What does radical ownership look like for someone that says, I don't care what it's gonna cost me, I'm gonna make this thing right?

SPEAKER_01 43:57

I'm reminded by um the Scripture where Jesus I'm trying to remember the full context where I believe a disciples asking him a question. Or pretty much like, hey, Jesus, what are you going to do about kind of a thing? Or what happens if someone does this to you? He says, Look, if they ridiculed me, if they cussed me out, if they stabbed me, they're getting ready to crucify me, you don't think they're going to do this to you? He says, but take heart, for I have even overcome the world. I I think before someone goes out to whether seek um any type of vengeance, any type of fix, any type of um uh solution, is one, um, forgive yourself and forgive those who trespass against you. And this is just all Bible. I'm I'm not making anything up. This is just Bible stuff. Um that's where I would start. Uh I I forgot who it was. Also, hey, hey Jesus, how many times should we forgive him? 70 times seven. Just as much as you can. Um, I think it's healing starts inner before we can really be able to give it out. I think Curtis shared that um that something in on the inside was moving and that was healing before he can um share it and give it out on the outside. And so I would just encourage anybody who um is is wanting to move towards healing, wanting to move towards a solution, um, is um get around other men and people to help you say, hey, brother, you got this. I I can I'll give you the small quick testimony this this week at Exponential. Even though we're out of church, there were two moments that I mean, live in real time where a friend of mine, this is actually, yeah, this is the Holy Spirit, felt betrayed, church, what we call church hurt, by a pastor in ministry. Like, this is a brand new situation. And um it left the church. This is like in the last couple of weeks, guys. This is recent, like hot off the press. And that same friend who he helped build the church with 15 years showed up here, not only at the conference, but in the same speaker lounge we're all sitting in. And right before this moment, this is this is actually crazy. Uh, before this moment happens, he pulls me inside. He's like, Man, I need you to tell me something different than what I'm telling myself. I need you to walk me through, and we had no idea this other party was one even going to be here. They normally are not even here. And this Holy Spirit just gave me some words to just encourage him to uplift his spirit to handle. I'm often I'm even reminded that before Jesus went to the wilderness to be tempted, watch it, that the spirit led him. My mind, my little uh ignorant mind thought it was that the enemy led him into the wilderness. It said that the spirit led him in. Like, I'm gonna go, um, hopefully you're prepared, hopefully you're fasted, because this test and trial is gonna come to you. You're you're not only gonna be betrayed once. This will happen again. But take heart, take heart for God has overcome it and just still watch my friend honor this moment, honor the man that just been blaspheming his name all over the church and to the board and uh honored him, said hello to him, and just held himself. I couldn't be more proud. And I knew he was being portrayed. So uh get those small wins, get around other men who can help you win at the small things, and and often um uh finally, uh get around men that can help you remind yourself of who you are, how God made you. Uh, and no matter what any tests and trials, any values that you may go through, that God that Jesus has gone before us, he has been through it, he has come in come out on the other side. So just be encouraged with that and uh lead with that. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

I think of uh the moment Jesus tells Peter the enemy demands to sift you like wheat, and he then he doesn't say, but I'm gonna stop him. Just when he does, and on the other end, you're gonna lead others. And I think surrender looks at the other side and says, All things I go through are useful. And so if I truly own this, I'm gonna own the good, the bad, and the ugly, no matter how much I had a part of it. How many times do you think the the other dudes were ripping Peter for abandoning Jesus? You know, I'd probably never let him let that down. And how many times you said, I want to, I don't want to speak tomorrow. I don't, they all know me. They knew me that I cursed out this little girl. And and yet he owned the moment, said no, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna lead with confidence that I've surrendered all that and he's gonna use it today. And if we own, truly own the whole shebang and all of our part of it, and understand we're all at war, man. The enemy wants to sift us all like wheat. But on the other end, God is so faithful and Jesus wants to use us. And if we truly own this, he will build his kingdom even through our mess. That's how good he is.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Mike, you speak like a mature pastor when you share.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Just walked with a lot of men through heartache. And uh it's painful. It's so painful. Even my own kids, you know, painful. But when God truly gets the glory and hearts are truly surrendered, I think he restores the track of multi-generational legacy because it can't be perfect, you know. It can't be, well, they were all so great. My son usually says, Well, I'm never gonna be perfect like you, Dad. Like, then you don't know my whole story. Let's talk. You know, it's like if you got generations of what seemed to be perfection, because everybody and nobody had an affair, nobody's like, there's no power. The redemption story means that redemption was needed. And so, yes, your story, if you're here right now going, what could God ever do with this? Then you don't truly know the God that we serve. And surrendering him just means he's gonna take that junk and say, watch me turn that into a powerful legacy, watch me turn that into a powerful teaching tool. And you stand up. I love what you said, Antoine, is help me reshape my thinking right now. So when I go into this, I can say, I'm not the ex that used to, I'm the redeemed. You know, I don't avoid that, I understand that, but I'm the redeemed who's going to use it. Watch me stand up under his glory, under his power, and use it.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah, and let me try to land the plan with what you just shared, because if we have a dude that's listening and he is in the middle of this, or we have uh even a female that has got uh, you know, as as guilty as anybody else in the room, the the belief that we can have is the shame, the guilt, the condemnation. A lot of times you don't share with everybody that you've done something dirty, you hide it and you try not to let anybody know about it. Well, as long as something is buried, it's very difficult to get healing. And the very lie that we believe, it's actually the opposite that we need to hear. We need to come out, share with trusted people that have marriages that have gone through some things, uh, folks that will actually be truth tellers and their life has proven out a life of legacy, get wisdom from those who have experienced some life and trials and tribulations and are at the other side. Go to those people, get it out of the dirt, and then let healing, let true repentance take place. And if you look at a chart, you guys are with Todd Wilson and Cody, I'm gonna set you up for a question here in a second. Todd Wilson, when he does life planning, he has everyone put their their entire lives on this massive long sheet of paper. And what he does is he says, What are the lowest parts of your life? And then where are the highest parts of your life? If you track it out, the lowest points of your life often follows the greatest peak that's coming in your life. And so actually, the science is when you're in the middle of your darkest, most horrific, lowest seasons of your life, you can't see that there's actually a peak that's available to you, and the father desires that for his children. Is there anybody that has something on their heart that they feel led that they want to what they want to share? Because I was going to say that as the follow-up. But is there anything in y'all's heart, your spirit, that you want to share with any of our viewers or listeners today?

SPEAKER_00 53:07

I think real quick, um, because today's passage was Psalm 23, and you think about all the King David went through and and did and his improprieties, and yet with a surrendered heart, he's able to say, Surely the goodness and love of the Lord is pursuing. Curtis said that it's chasing, you know, and we get out of the religion stage, especially when we're trapped, we get into religious thinking of God's the angry guy can't wait. God is just pursuing to restore, pursuing to create goodness. And if you can just wherever you're at, get a glimmer of what that looks like. He's chasing you down. Stop running, stop hiding, let him catch up. Because on the other end of it, you're gonna say, Why did I wait so long? He's so good.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

When I first reached out to Cody about being part of the dudes without dad's round table, his initial response was was birth from shame. He said, What if people that I've done wrong see me on this round table? And uh and I said shared with us, I was like, You've got to let your level of repentance be greater than their level of influence and impact on your life. He's like, Okay, that's it. And uh Cody's not back yet, and maybe we'll open him up on the the lat on the he just texted me, he's not happy about the situation, just put it that way.

SPEAKER_05 54:47

He's not he's not enjoying this moment. Um man, when he shares about this stuff, like I'm just drawn, it's so good, man. Because the way the way he's lived through it, but then the way he can articulate it, like he talked about it needing to come out like vomiting, like the way that he talks about it. Oh, we gotta when we come back together, we just have to ask him the same question and let him keep going. So good.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

Well, let me land the plane, and so I want to ask our listeners, our viewers to think about who needs to hear this, who needs to be encouraged, and then the proper response is obedience. If you truly desire to see peak experiences and be in a right relationship ultimately with God and not continue to dig the hole, come on out. Man, we are right around the best time of the year for Christians to start going back to church, finding people who love you and are willing to influence and impact your lives in a way that want to see you die a death where your kids, your grandkids say, that person impacted my life, Christ. He was a difference maker. That's the legacy that you really want to live, and the lies that we listen to so we can have temporary satisfactions are the things that are destroying and decaying a life that truly matters. And so I want to thank you for checking out the podcast. If there's somebody you know that needs to hear it, please share and then point them to a community inside of their city where they can find hope, healing, brotherhood, and true preaching of the gospel that's going to help move them into a closer relationship with God.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Forgiveness is more for you than them.

SPEAKER_06 56:37

I had inner peace for the first time in my life.

SPEAKER_03 56:41

It's just Jesus, just Jesus.