Pastor Brandon Petty: A Journey Through the Wilderness — Childhood Trauma, the Ministry Mask & Finding Freedom | Dudes Without Dads

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Pastor Brandon, welcome back to the Dudes Without Dads podcast. You're my first twice-time guest. Is that is there such a thing as two-time guests?

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Oh, that's an honor. Man, I love that. That's so cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

So I'm thankful that you're here. For those that don't know Pastor Brandon, there's one story that I want to share that might might shed light on the type of man that Pastor Brandon is. The first time I had the opportunity to jump in his truck, we're going to go hunt some deer out in the White House, North Nashville area. And I remember getting into your truck, and what caught me off surprise is when you started up the truck, there was Christian music playing on the radio. And that might sound small, that might sound insignificant, but I remember listening to that, and I immediately knew that you were different than many of the pastors I've spent time with. Because there are so many that you jump inside of a vehicle with, and what they're listening to, we don't often recognize as influencing us and birthing character. And I was like, man, this is the dude that I love and I want to spend time with. And so the measure of someone's character is who they are outside of the pulpit. And you have a high, uh, if a barometer would be the word, a high level of great character. So thank you again for being here today.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Oh man, such a blessing, such an honor. Thank you so much, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So we want to get into this book that you're releasing. And I believe that as a result of this interview, we're gonna have many that are gonna want to purchase this book and want to read it and uh want to be inspired and maybe even find healing through your journey. And so just right off the bat, who did you write this book for and why did you write it?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah, I think first and foremost, I wrote it for uh 10-year-old me. Um, you know, people ask why did it take so long to write it? And because I didn't write it with the intention of like really writing a book as much as I wrote it for um personal freedom and healing. You know, I I we may have talked about this last time, I can't remember, but um, you know, they say there's really three ways that human beings shed stress, and that is physical activity, um, talking about it and writing it down. And the average person today, probably especially the modern um cultural American, uh, doesn't spend a lot of time doing either of those three things. We don't physically move um or exercise probably for the healthy, for the right reasons, right motivations. Um, we've lost the art of writing and um not many people talk about their pain. And so first and foremost, it was for me. And then second, it was as I began that journey, uh, I started to realize God kept placing men, especially in my life, that um it was like they were shocked, but I wasn't, that I they shared my story. I don't think we realize how there was a time when you would tell someone that a young boy was molested or whatever, that um that would have felt like a, oh my gosh, that's such a rare thing to hear about. But it is becoming the norm that sexual abuse, physical abuse, uh, this goes on quite a bit. Um, and so my second audience was just anybody who has walked through childhood trauma that hasn't dealt with it, hasn't healed from it, probably has kept it in the dark, kept it in secret, haven't even told their spouse. And so it really is for that middle-aged adult that's still living in the emotional maturity of their 10-year-old self because they haven't been freed from that bondage. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, in a second, I'll I'll go into your book and ask you a few questions, but you said you wrote it for your 10-year-old self. Why, why 10? And what does a listen listener need to know about you know the early years of one's life?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yeah, I mean, obviously, um, you know, a lot of uh I've I've found that a lot of parents somehow think that when our kids turn 13 or 16 or 18, that that is somehow the beginning of their formative life. And it's not, it's actually um between ages eight and 10. And um, so a lot of times dads don't engage with their sons, especially, uh, or daughters too, um, until they're teenagers, and they've they kind of have this mentality of like, I don't know why my teenager is not welcome to my um, you know, relationship attempts or whatever, because now like I'm ready to lock in. And the problem is because you didn't lock in when they were eight, they've already, they've already begun to form who they are, what kind of friends they're they're choosing. Um, they're already thinking through what kind of person they want to be, how they're gonna dress, how they're gonna act. All of that is is very formative between the ages eight and ten. Well, between ages eight and ten is when I suffered the most severe sexual physical abuse. Um, and so uh as I navigated my own journey, I realized that uh a lot of my emotional dysfunctions, my uh emotional maturity had already been shaped, even unconsciously or subconsciously, I guess would be a better word, um, because of those years, how I respond, you know, those automatic responses. I love what Dallas Willard says about um the key to loving God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength is uh one of those keys is to battle those automatic, sinful responses. And we think they're formed like, well, in my teenage years or my college years, but you actually learn how to uh you learn attachment theory and you learn relationship bonding, you relearn, you learn whether or not you can be honest, uh, all of that uh between ages eight and 10, uh, because that's when you begin to realize either the world is safe for me and people are safe, or the world is unsafe and people are unsafe. And so you develop an automatic response, whether it's to lie in every situation because lying keeps you safe. Uh, that was kind of my MO is to tell the truth meant severe punishment. And so here you are as a 26-year-old male, and you know, you're married, you're in ministry, and um you can't even tell the truth about the smallest things because your internal automatic response is if you're honest, this person's going to leave. You're going to lose more than you're going to win, which is so anti-gospel, right? Um, so yeah, that's why for my 10-year-old self, because I didn't realize I had been formed in such deep, deep ways, um, even as a 30-something year old man, because of what happened to me uh at 10.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

So Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. In chapter two of your book, you kind of share a little bit of of some um trauma that you went through from eight uh to ten years old. And I'd like for you to take us back to those years that you're being abused, and what did you come to the conclusion that love actually looked like as a result of being sexually molested inside of your um adolescent years?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah, I mean, and it's and it's crazy too, right? Because like when you start talking about these things, and and when I look back and start talking through what was going through my mind, it it's people don't realize like as a child, you don't have the mental maturity to process correctly what's happening to you. I think even maybe adults or parents that maybe maybe you're listening to this or watching this podcast, and your shame or your guilt is not because it happened to you or you did it, but it happened to maybe your child or it happened to somebody that you care about, and you're carrying the shame of why didn't they tell me? What was I not, you know, and what I want to encourage you is one, don't make it about you. It has it not necessarily anything to do with you. As a child, they don't have the mental maturity to understand one, this is this is not okay. Or two, like, there's this process that goes through your mind where you're like, is this the way that you are actually loved, accepted by peer groups? So for me, not having a dad in my life, I I look back to some of those days, and um there was a part of me in my mind that thought, if this person will stick around and actually see value in me, then I'll allow this thing to happen because at least I'm valuable to someone. Like that's the that's the kind of immature thoughts that run through your mind. You don't even really have the words or the capacity to think through, I have been severely wronged, and someone needs to know about this. Um, the shame that walks through your mind is I've done something wrong. And it's not even about, it's not even that person, it's all the things that's gonna happen to you or that's wrong with you. And so um when you have men paying you attention without a father in your life, well, now you you know, you're walking down the road of like, hey, you know, there's if pornography is the thing that's gonna draw my friends around or draw these people around, if this is gonna be the thing, like I'm going to get some sort of sense of comfort or safety from just being, even if it's objectified, um, I'm going to feel some sort of sense of love, acceptance, and safety in that. Even though, you know, the reality is you're not safe. You know, it's it's it's not okay. Um, so I want to encourage maybe any parent out there that's carrying that weight of like, man, I wish my child would have told me. I wish like sometimes they don't have the mental maturity or capacity to realize, like, man, I have been severely wronged and it's not my fault. And um someone needs to know.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, you you mentioned that um there was actually a quote where you had men that were sexually abusing you, but you actually developed a a fondness for those men who hurt you because at least um they didn't believe you. Will you talk about that?

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, um, I can't remember um what the syndrome is actually called. I know there's a syndrome for it, but it's basically like um maybe it's Stockholm syndrome, if if I'm saying that correctly, but it's where you become a the prisoner. They said this happened a lot with prisoners of war, where you've been a prisoner so long you actually develop an affinity for your captors. Um, and it's the same kind of deal. It's like, man, you you're stuck in this world so long that this becomes your reality. And really, from the time that I was eight and all the way up through my early teen years, you know, I was held captive by um just a lot of sexual promiscuity, uh, the sexualization uh of my life and the people around me. It was it when I look back, it was severely dark. But at the same time, it brought me comfort as a child because it's like, well, this is the only world that I know, and it's the only world that I find safety and solace in. Um and it's amazing too, because like uh no matter where you go, it you tend to find those people. It's it's it's like it's like it's almost like it's like a magnet, like you're just stuck in this dark world and you're just it's magnetized. Um, and so that's what was always like when I look back, I think those are the things that kind of like I almost stand in awe of like, man, we moved to three different places, and all three of those places, there was someone ready to abuse me or someone ready to like introduce me to you know other other, you know, forms of pornography or whatever it is. And you just look back and it's like, man, I was stuck in this prison, you know, and developed an affinity for where I was at.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

There's a concept that you mentioned inside the book that I really want every dude to to pay attention to. And it's a distinction that you made between memory and a and a monument, and you referred it uh to being like building a shrine, and and most men actually think they moved on. Um would you mind explaining what does that like what does that practically look like in a dude's life every day?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

You know, um, I think because memories are so powerful, right? Like there's something about nostalgia. Like, you know, I think some people will even say, like, man, I wish I could go back to high school, or I wish I could go back to this thing. And it's funny because when you're in the middle of it, you don't appreciate it as much as when you're past it. Um, and so a lot of what we call, um, man, I this was the good old days, is really just nostalgia. It's it's like we we have like a highlight film where it's like we we remember those little moments, but like you forget the sleepless nights or the hurt that you felt back then or the brokenness. So we almost reverse that a little bit. It's almost like a reverse nostalgia, where it's like, I was hurt by these people, these things happened, especially when it comes to family, right? I think one of the things that has stuck out to me, I can't remember who said it. It may have been, I quote Dallas Wheeler quite a lot, but he said, our our um nuclear family is part of our sanctification. And I remember sitting in that, like, I don't know that I've ever because there's a part of us, right, that looks back at maybe some of the memories that we had disdain for, or maybe we're still holding on to bitterness or unforgiveness for something that our parent did, our father did, our mother did. And we don't see that as a part of our sanctification. We see that as a part of something that should be rejected and should be hated and despised. No, for instance, I look back and there's a part of me that's like that memory of my dad not being there. I can hold up, I can make that a monument in the standpoint of like, well, look what I did. I did so much better than my dad who wasn't around. And I can have these, these, these feelings about my, and what if I'm not careful, I've actually made a prideful shrine out of this my somehow my ability to outdad my dad. When in reality, Josh, if I'm being honest, it was a grace that my dad was not in my life. Because my dad was not in a good place. He was on drugs, he was doing things that were so there's a part of me that I've learned from walking through the healing process of like, man, I really needed my dad, but I didn't need that version of my dad. And actually, it's one of the things that I'm having to pray and process through now because there was a part of me that still held on to um bitterness when my dad finally came around. My dad came to know the Lord. I got to baptize my dad, but I was still holding on to an older version of my dad. In fact, um I can remember Josh when he died. I did my, I actually preached my dad's funeral. And I remember uh my stepmother and her child, she had had children, you know, and he was a stepdad to those children. And to, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but to go to my own father's funeral that I'm preaching at and have them tell stories about riding on the tractor with papa, um getting to experience the love of my father and and their not even blood grandfather, that I didn't get that version. Somebody else got that version of my dad. And I remember there were years, Josh, I walked through like anger. I can't believe, like, why didn't I get that? Why didn't my kids get that version of my dad? Instead of praise God that my dad finally became the man he was meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Like that's that's hard. It was hard to wrestle through. And so there was a part of me that's like, man, everything that's I'm I'm sitting here before you today, Josh. Like, there's there's no moment like this if it wasn't for those sanctification moments, you know, of like walking through, of like, I can look at it one of two ways. I can look at those memories and and make a shrine out of it of like, you know, hey, this happened to me. Everybody look at this thing that happened to me. That's why I even say this in my book. Like, my testimony is not that I was abused, and look, God made me a preacher and do all this stuff. My testimony is I was a sinner, I was lost, and I was dead in my sin, and God made me alive through Christ Jesus. And in that making alive process, God wants to save every part of us. And part of that salvation process, when you see scripture where Jesus healed people, that word healed in Hebrew is actually, or in Greek is the same word for salvation. And so every time he healed someone, that's why he would also say, Your sins are forgiven. There is a complete healing that God wants to do in us, and so a lot of us have had our sins forgiven, but we haven't had our heart truly healed. And so uh that's a part of our salvation process, and that's why I tell people, like, your nuclear family is a part of your sanctification process. Good, bad, ugly, all the things. Like, and Willard talks about this in his book, Divine Conspiracy. He's like, if you're unable to reconcile the fact that the family you grew up in is like you have to be reconcile the fact like it's good, it's all good. Like whatever it is, whatever happened, like this is a part of who I am. And I cannot be my full self without embracing all of the craziness and dysfunction of my mom's side of the family, my dad's side of the family. I can do one of two things, right? I can look at all the drunkenness, the womanizing, the divorces, the all the stuff, and separate myself from that. But as soon as I do that, Josh, I am prideful and sinful because I am somehow saying I am so much better than them when they were just they were human beings in need of God's grace, just like I am. And that that entire process actually teaches me a lot about who I am. And I can embrace those things. I can say, man, you know, like I can actually have empathy for my grandfather, you know. As I remember watching, I watched both my grandfathers pass away on their deathbeds from cancer. Um, I watched my mother pass away on her deathbed. Um, I wasn't there when my dad died, but I look back now and I have these vivid memories, and I can actually reconcile them and and and have peace with them. But I think sometimes um we have like a reverse nostalgia with some of these things, and we use them as badges of honor, but really it's just pride, it's bitterness, it's unforgiveness, and those things have to be healed in us.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

That's so good. I want to take a moment and just let our listeners process for a second. And you know, this morning, Pastor Brandon, I mentioned that me, Judah, and Jira were going through the book of Jonah. And if you remember the story, who threw Jonah into the sea?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Yeah, the rest of the shipmates. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Yeah, but Jonah's narrative in his prayer was God, you threw me into the sea. Yeah. And then you go into the New Testament, and Jesus said, Unless you forgive others of their trespasses, my heavenly father will not forgive you of yours. And so what I've noticed with father wounds and those that are going through cycles and passing it on, to the level of grace and forgiveness that they have given is to the level that they have experienced.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

And when you're sharing about the the making monuments out of bad situations, in many ways we have created a narrative that hasn't released the betrayer. Yes. And and you're saying that if you learn to release it or allow healing to take place. Place, you can really experience I guess your you know freedom inside of this life, and that your family is a mirror to what your current level of sanctification is. Yeah, and so sometimes if you're mad at everybody around you, it's not them, it's evidence that there's things that need to take place inside of you. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and it's it's interesting, right? Because there's a reason why Matthew uh five, when he's talking about when you love your enemies, you actually become true children of God. Like we can't reconcile that that there's two emotions that can live in the same place. I can be angry, I can be upset. There's a part of like a real uh desire for righteousness and a real hatred and disdain for wickedness and sin, but also have love at the same time. Like that is so hard for us to hold in the same hands, where God's like, man, I'm so sick of this wickedness and sin, but at the same time, I'm gonna allow rain to fall on your fields. I'm gonna allow the sun to rise on you and yours, just like I do with everybody else. And um, that's really hard for us to reconcile, you know. And and if you've really dove into Jonah, there's a there's a part of you that when you read what we're dealing with, that you want to side with Jonah. I mean, we it's funny, we make that book out about calling too much, and it's you know, it's like oh, he's ran from his calling. No, he realized the Assyrians were terrible people, and the thought of God forgiving the most brutal, violent, disgusting, wicked people that didn't sit well with Jonah, and so like there's a part of us, right? That's like we want healing from our past, we don't want forgiveness though, for for those who hurt us, though. Especially when it's your dad or your mom or people you're supposed to love the most and want you want them to love you. Um, and that's what Jonah, like so. There's a part of us that's like, dude, I get it, Jonah. You know, um, but then when you get to the end of the story, you realize, like, man, this is this is the human condition that hurt people, hurt people. I mean, it's it's such a cliche, but it is true, you know. I can't imagine the bitterness and the hurt that he had walked through and the trauma that he had walked through, and to become so cynical, you know. I that's one of my prayers, Josh, that I do not become the cynic. Um, because I think the older we get, I can see why you you can see like Christians who have been around for a long time. And either one of two things happened. You see them be formed into such an ultimate, gentle person of love, or you see them become just that, you know, sour-faced, leathered, weathered over. You could tell, man, they just have such a disdain. Uh, and it's because they allow their heart to grow cynical. Um, that's the battle that we face, man, when we're walking through healing from trauma.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

I want to actually segue that conversation for, and I specifically want you to think about the pastor that's inside of ministry and they've experienced success. And a second, I'm going to ask you a question, but if you were to to create like a you know, a highlight real of some of the things, accolades that you've received, would you mind sharing with our listeners and specifically any pastor that is thinking about, you know, what does you know, Pastor Brandon know about success? Would you mind sharing some of the honorariums, some of the achievements at your at the height of your career, if we can use that term?

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Uh that's tough, Josh. You know, I don't I don't know. I think what is success to to certain people. You know, it's funny, I just preached on this Sunday, uh, talking about achievement versus fruit, because you can have success but not have fruit. When you when we die, Josh, it is so interesting because um we will live our life for achievement, but you would never want someone talking about your achievements at your funeral. Think about this right now. If somebody came to you, if your family came to you, Josh, and went, hey, here's what we're gonna share at your eulogy, we're gonna talk about. He was a podcaster, he started a business that became multi. He does you'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that sounds a little narcissistic and a little weird. What do we share? We work for achievement, but people talk about your fruit. And it's interesting that we will live for achievement, but hope that people say nice things about us. And so I, you know, I would feel a little weird sharing that, but I mean, you know, we I I've led a student ministry from 15 to 300. I've we started a church 14 years ago in my home with eight people. We now see over 1,300 people, you know, come on a weekend. Those are probably the things that some pastor out there want to hear maybe or or maybe see as success. Um, every year we see over a hundred bap a hundred baptisms in our church in a in a small town north of Nashville, right? Like we're we're in a in a farming town north of Nashville, just before the Kentucky state line. You know, I've come from abuse and and dysfunction and brokenness to, man, I've been married for 23 years, have three kids that all love Jesus, love the church, and love people. Um, you know, all of those things, but those aren't the things that I deem as as successful. You know, I my my heart and my passion is to live for fruit because fruit is lasting. A lot of times you don't see fruit until you die. Um, you don't really know the fruit that's being grown until you're gone.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

100%.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

So I mean, yeah, I mean, I I've led it large levels, small levels. Um, you know, so uh I guess in some people's minds, you know, there's success there, but with that comes a level, I think when every time you have achievement, the problem with achievement is it only lasts so long. There's a reason why it's difficult for teams to repeat as champions in in sports. And it's not because they're not good enough, it's because, okay, we we did it. Now what? You know, achievement like name the NBA champion from six years ago. I guarantee you, hardly no one off the top of their head. Now, if you thought about it for a little bit or if you googled it, you'd be like, oh yeah. Um, but it's like, dude, achievement is so fading. And uh man, I and I realized that we were we were the second fastest growing church in America in 2020, 2021, something like that. Um, but nobody like 2021, there was a magazine that had proof of it, but outside of that, like who remembers that?

SPEAKER_00 29:24

You can get a t-shirt and wear it everywhere that you go, but that's what I want to. I you have a a spot where you talk about the ministry mask, and I believe there's a lot of dudes who end up in ministry looking to find identity through success and accomplishment. And you mentioned this, and this is where I want you to go. And I really want to, man, I I really have a heart for pastors inside vocational ministry, and I really want you to offer some help inside this idea of you had been blessed beyond your character. And what does it look like to be leading others while your own soul is still in an Egypt state? Would you mind sharing a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah. Um, man, and it's such a weird thing to look back on because I don't think you necessarily are cognitive of it when it's happening. Um, and I'll tell you why. It's because we live in such an achievement, success-driven, because there's a part of you that's like, if we're seeing massive people come through the doors, or you know, I remember the days when we would like really, really pump up Easter numbers or whatever, and you're like, man, this many people got saved, or this many, whatever. It's almost like a validation. You feel like it's a validation from God, therefore, this other stuff doesn't matter. It's like I know that I'm not where I need to be spiritually. I know I'm not probably the best follower of Jesus. But man, my gift, the gift that God has given me and the blessing and all this stuff, um, it's almost like it may it you validate in your own mind, I must be doing something right. And what I've realized over the years is sometimes God will use you in spite of you, but how freeing would it be is if if God used me because of me, you know, uh, where I'm actually on the same page with God, because throughout history, I mean, the Bible is full of those stories, right? Almost every story is somebody who's like, God used you in spite of you. And that's, and sometimes we can wear that as a badge of honor, right? And then, well, that's why that's why I don't care about spiritual formation or why I don't care about these things, because you know, it's almost like a bragging right of like, I'm so jacked up, but look, God uses jacked up people. And it's like true, but it's not an excuse to, you know, flaunt your, your, your mess or your dysfunction, or to stay in it or sit in it, because eventually all of those stories also end um as as tales. You know, I tell people you're either going to read those those stories as cautionary tales, or you live to become one. You know, and I think that's what you see throughout scripture. I think that's why when you see Jesus show up on the scene, um, Israel had had such a hard time reconciling the fact of what do you mean my ethnicity doesn't get me into the kingdom? What do you mean like God has used Israel for that? And it's like, yeah, but you forget about all the times that God had to allow them to go into exile and he called them fruitless vines. And, you know, it's like, I don't think this is the prescription, you know. The prescribed format is not go and live full of sin and brokenness and then watch God use you. It's going like, man, every now and then when you see a King David defeat Goliath or do something incredible, it's like there are moments in our lives when our will happens to line up with God's, and that's when God does something incredible. Um, but I think too often we think it's like a recipe. Oh, God uses jacked-up people, therefore I'm gonna be a jacked-up person and I'm gonna say jacked-up things, and I'm gonna do, like I've seen pastors flaunt that. And honestly, like I don't say this as an as a judgmental thing, but those are also the ones we normally see on the in the news headlines with moral failures and everything else. And now they have no ministry. And so I think that's what I would encourage the pastor with is like, man, if you are living from that place, um, there was a famous pastor uh just two years ago, and his wife was being interviewed because they ended up getting a divorce. Um he struggled with you know, uh living a sexual immoral life outside the pulpit. So they ended up getting a divorce, and she said that for two years straight, she tried to talk him into uh finding community to confess his temptations and and sins, uh, find people to confide in. And his response to her was like, people can't know this stuff. If they know this stuff, our church will implode. And how crazy is it? The very thing that he was afraid of happened anyways, because he chose to live in darkness and sin. And I think that's what a lot of pastors struggle with. They struggle with if people knew this, if people only knew what I really struggle, like the deepest, darkest parts of me, then they wouldn't respect me, they wouldn't follow me, they wouldn't come to my church. And the problem is that you know, we don't realize that that's exactly what the enemy wants, because if the longer you stay in the darkness, eventually that stuff's gonna come to the light.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, and and if you think about it, friend, so I'm I want us to speak to our listener or our viewer. If you think about that, that means the God that you're really worshiping is not the God of the Bible. You just have but created yourself an idol so you could be worshipped. Yes. So I want to make sure that anybody who's listening, heed the warning, recognize the signs. If someone is inside of that situation right now, what would be your advice to them, Pastor?

SPEAKER_02 35:57

I man, they they need to it's I walk through uh some of these steps in the book, but man, it really does start with confession. And sometimes that could be maybe you gotta pay somebody to confess to, like a counselor, you know. Like I and I get like that is the hardest thing. I mean, even when I had to sit and wrestle through telling my own wife, who I had been married to for over a decade at the time, um, there was such a level of shame and apprehension and guilt, and um the very thing that because because remember, my automatic response is lie, because if you tell the truth, severe um uh consequences are at hand, which means that that could mean she divorces me, that could mean like she doesn't want to ever touch me again, you know, whatever it may be. Um, that is the automatic response. And so our fear is if this gets out, things are gonna go south. When in reality, it drew us closer together. It actually created intimacy instead of separating the intimacy, because now I'm fully known, right? Because I think every every human being feels this, but especially every man, even though we don't we can't communicate this verbally, uh, every man's desire is to be fully known, fully loved. Every man's greatest fear is to be fully known. Because if you're fully known, you may not be fully loved. And so I would just encourage the pastor out there that's struggling with that, man. You you need to seriously find, and if you don't have that, you I know a lot of pastors are are doing the lone wolf thing. Um, they don't they don't have a good community. You know, we started um a network of churches called Landmark. There's just a couple of us churches, and it's grown, it's continuing to grow. And that where we have churches from California all the way to Florida, but we started with the heart of I care about healthy pastors, healthy churches, because I think the health of the pastor goes to the health of the church. Not size of the church, but health of the church. And um, dude, we we've been doing retreats for over 10 years now, and I can sit and tell stories all day long of how, like, man, healing, transformation, but it all started because we created a safe space for pastors and their wives to confess hard things, talk about real deep struggles. Um, it's interesting how we will preach as if we are friends of God, um, but yet we don't treat God like a friend and we don't have any friends outside of God. Um, and it's like the whole what God wants for us is relationship, not just with Him, but with others. That's why we have the church. And so the church has become an institution that only meets on Sundays instead of like the family that it was meant to be. Um, so I'll just encourage them, man, find someone to tell. I think that is the starting place until, again, until you can like verbally express there's a great book, The Body Keeps a Score. And they they've done research that one of the greatest ways that they've seen people with PTSD or people coming out of severe trauma, um, the greatest ways they've seen people recover is just through talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

I appreciate you sharing that. And well, is that you mentioned that you had a community that you launched for pastors. Is that something that we're able to give information out for anybody who might be looking for a community? What's the name of that website?

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Landmarkassociation.com.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

All right, and I'm sure that person can search it or use Gemini or chat or or Claude to help them find that out. I want to find out I want to take kind of a pivot now, and I want to go down to what was your well, what was the moment where God stopped you from running and said, sit down, we need to chat.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Yeah. Um uh obviously 2015. I think I shared the story last time, but yeah, it was uh sometimes we think that we can outrun our past, um, or we think we can change locations. You know, I I kind of walked through the narrative of the Exodus story. Really, uh, the Exodus story, you know, Moses had to have his own personal Exodus before he could take Israel through an Exodus. And uh, you know, I talk about in the book how uh we we kind of overlook little moments in the Old Testament. Man, the Old Testament writers were geniuses. I mean, when you read the Psalms, it's like, man, a normal human being couldn't have written these. But you then you realize like it's God inspired, right? Like these are incredible human beings inspired by the Holy Spirit, right? But the the the scripture says that when Moses leaves Egypt and he's on the run after committing murder, that he stops and he sits beside a well. And that's a seemingly insignificant moment until you realize that in Hebrew culture, a well was representative of the soul. Um, that there was there's like a double meaning there where it's like this wasn't just a normal resting place. This was a place where like he finally was able to stop running, sit, and reflect. And it's actually, of course, the the launching pad of this new life for Moses. You know, he finds his wife, he launches a family, he's kind of found the shepherd life. I mean, you go from being educated by Pharaoh and growing up in the wealth and prominence and probably even a little bit of pomp and circumstance to do, you're just a normal shepherd living out here in the desert with your family. You see in 40 years, you see such a humility come upon Moses' life. I think sometimes when we when we look at the story of Moses being called by God at the bush, there's part of us we always want to make it about our personal calling, you know, stuff like that, which is funny. Um, I think I this is a whole nother podcast, but I think we are called to be holy. That's we're called to holiness and to love the Lord. That's our calling. But I truly believe there was a humility that Moses had developed, and it took time. And so for me, man, I was running so far from my family of origin. Uh, I wanted nothing to do with my mom, I wanted nothing to do with my dad. I wanted to be my own man. I had ran so far from everything that happened to me. Nobody's ever gonna know the disgusting things that I did or the things that happened to me when I was a kid. Because now I have something that when you look at my life, people will now respect me, love me, affirm me, receive me because I've done something. And when you are in the middle of a fast-growing church, when you are in the middle of continuously trying to take building God's church that the Bible says he will do, and you put that on yourself, uh you don't have time to sit by a well. So I think sometimes like God will He'll mess you up to force you to stop and and to actually look within. And that was the moment when I ran into my abuser. Um you know, we had those, that that moment and several other family moments that um really created space for me to. Stop and really contemplate and think about what I'm doing. And that actually led to you know a pastor showing me how to do a solitude sabbatical. I had never spent time in solitude in silence. It's interesting, Josh. If you know me now and you would have met me 20 years ago, um I was the ADD pastor. I mean, I'm like, I got to be busy, I got to be working, I got to be on the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, hyperactive, extroverted. I'm in four small groups. I'm doing all because like I want people to see me as a builder. I want people to see me as this person who's like, you know, just boom, boom, go, go, go. And um man, I I look back at my life. I'm like, how many conversations did I really miss out on with the Lord because I couldn't sit still? You know, part of me lives this life of or I don't live a life of regret, but man, I sure do wish I could have slowed down long enough to hear God speak to me back then.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

That's the entire podcast. It's just that clip.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Man, I I mean, because it's it's what we wish for with our parents. Like, there was I I feel that with my dad. Like, man, I I actually broke down about a month ago. I'm gonna get emotional thinking about it, Josh. But I'm sorry, man.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

No, you're a safe space.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

I just walked through a hard season, uh leading through some stuff with our team, and we were uh the elders were praying over me before I got to preach a few weeks ago. And uh I just broke down during the prayer, just weep. I mean, I hadn't wept like that in a long time. Um and I just said I wish I had my dad to call up and say, Dad, how do I do this? What what do I do? Help me make a decision. You know, I think we all long for those moments that we wish we could go back and have conversations that we can no longer have. And man, I sometimes I mourn that with my heavenly father, you know. God, I wish I would have asked your advice on this first. I wish I'd have done this, you know. And so for me, man, that moment, if you haven't had that moment where you've just sat long enough to just be in his presence. And one of the greatest prayers we can pray, Josh, is to not say a thing. Um I love what Mother Teresa said on a live interview one time. They asked her, like, well, when you pray to God, what does he say to you? She said, Nothing. Well, what do you say to him? Nothing. She's like, I just sit and know that he's looking at me in love. I look back at him with love. And um Willard said this, I'm sorry, I keep quoting Willard, but man, it's so profound. He said, Um, if your version of faith does not present God as somebody who is able to be loved, it's probably a false version of faith. Because the primary commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And yet we present a gospel and a God who is unable to be personally loved. And it's like, man, if we can have that kind of view where the Trinitarian God of the universe actually wants to sit in relationship with me, how much, how much would that change our minds, our hearts, our lives, Josh? I mean, come on, bro. We're talking about the creator of the universe, says, I call you, Joshua Brown, friend. And I don't need you to tell me all the stuff you need or want. I just need you to like sit with me for a little while so we can just like be together, man. Because that's what it's gonna be like in the kingdom. Heaven is gonna be only gonna be for people who can stand it, bro. You know, if you can, if you can stand being in God's presence, um, 24-7, man, and just be loved by him and love him, then man, the kingdom's gonna look really good.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

For our listener and for ourselves, you know, what you just expounded, what you just shared is the exact thing that Papa O and I shared with you. I met a guy who he's one with the force. And we have around him, it's like you're around the father. And uh spoke with him just a few minutes today. And I was talking about the as you go network, disciple making movements, planning churches inside of business and homes, and which I'm excited about. And he said, Josh, he said, only one thing is needed. You need to be still and know that he is God.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Come on, man.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

And he's so so it I'm I'm echoing what you just echoed. The very thing that we need is a book that reminds us, lives that remind us, that hey, healing and wholeness is found inside of our proximity with Yahweh, yeah, man. Sitting with the Most High and letting him nourish our souls and then obeying him. Yeah, and and that's the key. So um, I hope that resonates. It's speaking to me. I feel like now, you know, going in into a closet and shutting the door and not coming out for a couple of months. But I do want to close with why you wrote the book. At the very end of it, you give a roadmap. And so there's a dude that's going to be buying this book. What do you hope they get out of the face it, the formation, and the freedom, the the roadmap at the very end? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah, I mean, uh it's and I I think I say this in the book too. Like it's not like a box check. It's not a do this first, do this second, do this third. Um it's it's committing to a lifestyle. I I never try to use the word healed, but use the word healing because I think we'll say that, yeah, I mean, I'm finally, I'm finally over this thing. Or I'm like, I tell people all the time, like there are days I feel super free. I can think about my mom and dad in joy and in peace and in love. And then there are those moments, man, where you just something else pops back up, or you know, something happens even with your own. I tell my kids uh as they mature, get older, I'm like, I have worked hard with the help of the Holy Spirit to break curses. You you're gonna have your own battles, your own struggles. And sometimes I see like uh characteristics of my mom in my kids, or it's it's a different little thing, right? It's not the severity, but it's just those things that remind you it is a lifelong journey. And so the map is not like a start here, end here. It's more of like, man, we're it's like uh what's what's the book uh canoeing through the mountains, where it's like talking about Lewis and Clark, where they're like, we're going to venture the wild west. We have no idea what it looks like. Uh, we're basically creating the map as we go, but we have a guideline, we have a guide. Um, and that guide is the Holy Spirit, and the guide is people who have walked through it before us. Um, and so I would just encourage them like, don't look at it as something else to perform. I think we are really good at human as human beings, especially those who are achievement or success-based or focused, to turn everything that God said into a to-do list. And what you do when that happens is you still make it about you. I can somehow perform my way to freedom, and you can't. And so I'll just encourage them as you're walking through um those that that roadmap that I get at the end, look at it as a lifelong adventure, not a start and stop, finish.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

So Pastor Brandon, I want to thank you for writing your book. It's called A Journey Through the Wilderness. I believe that every dude that listens to this first share the episode, help us get this word out to more individuals, and then purchase the book. I mean, if it's nothing more than to support Pastor Brandon Petty or to help move his message to more individuals that need healing, whether they're inside of vocational ministry or not, this is a book worth buying. Where can they go? Where can your book be found?

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Yeah, so August 11th, book launches. We're actually we'll do a launch party on Sunday, August 9th. So if you're in the area, uh be watching for that on our church social media, but on my social media as well. We'll do a book launch event. You can come by, say hi, celebrate with me. Uh, we'll have copies of the book to sell and give away and all that kind of stuff. Um, but yeah, August that we actually do a podcast released, and I'm doing a sermon series around the book too, starting in August. So, but it'll be on it'll be on sale at Amazon or through uh obviously our church. You can come, you know, purchase it through here too. But Amazon will be the best place to find it. But also be on the lookout in the next week or so. I'm releasing um uh you can sign up for our email blast, and it'll you'll actually get a seven-day devotional uh when you sign up for the email to get uh notifications and updates on the book. So, but you can follow me. Um, I think it's BPetty GC on Instagram and uh of course Brandon Petty on Facebook. That's where you'll get a lot of updates too. But if you'll sign up for that email blast, you can get updates on the book and get like opportunities to win free copies, all that kind of stuff. So, but yeah, August 11th, Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

And if if you don't have a home church or if you just enjoy listening to phenomenal um preaching and communication, I mean this when I say it. I have our our family has not heard a better communicator. And so we want you first to have a local church. You need to be inside a community or inside of home fellowship. Um, but if you don't have that or preaching that you're feeding or or processing or that's serving the age and stage that you're in, check out Generation Church in Portland. Uh, Pastor Brandon, his community are phenomenal. Pastor B, you're a friend. I love you, and thank you for being on the Dudes Without Dads podcast.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Hey, I love you, Josh. Thank you for what you do, man. I think this podcast is so important, and we need more men uh helping to be guides in a in a culture. It's it's we're starting, I'm sorry to take up more time, but we're starting a series this Sunday called Heroes in Heaven, and we're walking through some of the broken dysfunctions in our community, and one of them is fatherlessness. And so um we need more voices.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Yeah, I think I'll start streaming your your services on my my channels. Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Hey, thank you.